The Nullified Take LIVE #1 | Survivor what's next?

0:00 [music] [music] Heat. Hey, Heat. >> [music] >> Welcome back to the nullify take on YouTube where we've got the TT takes for you on Survivor offseason content.

1:02 I'm your host Chris and with me again today is Andre. Andre, how have you been? >> Good day. Yeah, pretty good. I'm in withdrawals right now, but I mean this is every summer here in Australia [laughter] whenever we don't we're not going to get any survive for like what four months I feel. So it's going to be a long a long slog I think. I don't know. What are you watching while Survivor's off? so I started watching, have you heard of the show called Inside Insiders on Netflix? It's a bunch of like YouTube celebrities. Ekken Sue who was on the traitors is one of the people who is playing in this one as well. So there it's I think it's KSI who started this reality TV competition to try and like he's basically he's basically copying >> to a smaller degree I guess what the beast Mr.

1:53 Beast has done with doing Beast games, but he's doing something. >> It's like an influencer reality/TV show and it's kind of interesting. So, the concept is that they go into a house almost like a Big Brother style thing. They have to vote each other out or people get eliminated in the game and they start with a million dollars in the pot, but they don't get any luxuries or like good food. They get like almost like prison-like food and no luxury. So, every time they want to get a luxury or they want to get better food upgrades or things like that, they have to actually use money from the million-dollar pot. So, it's like who's going to spend the most money >> basically throughout the game is probably going to become a target and so forth. But, yeah, it's an interesting concept. So, I'm just I'm watching that at the moment. >> Yeah, in some ways. Yeah. So that's kind of what I'm doing. similar to you having a bit of Survivor withdrawals.

2:44 I've also watched three episodes of Australian Survivor, the latest one. So, >> Oh, yes. Yes, I'm so slow slowly but surely starting to catch up on that one. I do want to at some point I'll have watched the whole season and then me and you can probably do like a >> an aftermath like what did we think of the season type of vibes. yeah, I'm like I'm enjoying there being no Survivor because things are a little bit more less manic and crazy trying to get ready for the weekend, but then I'm really missing talking to you and everybody on the lives. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. we've got Danica here in the live as well. Hello, Danica. Welcome back. the idea with these lives that we're going to be doing, and if people like it, I think Andre, we'll start doing it more often. Maybe not every week, but maybe every off second week or third week, we'll come back and do a bit of a live is to just keep people engaged, talk about the news of Survivor as it comes out.

3:36 Maybe do a little bit of rankings. Maybe, you know, we'll get ideas from the live audience if there's specific topics that they would like for us to get into. you know, we could talk about new era, Mount Rushmore, for instance. We can talk about who's the best, you know, players from the new era. We can we can rank different seasons and things like that. my memory is not as good as it used to be about some of the earlier seasons. I probably don't have the time to go and watch it, but I can do a casual fan ranking of previous seasons at least, Andre. And >> casual like 30s and 40s to be honest. [laughter] >> Yes. Yeah. Very casual since the 40s for me. I feel like 30s. I was still heavily into it, but I feel like I've become a lot more casual from the 40s onwards. But here's a good question for you to start the podcast off. Andre, we've got season 51. It's just wrapped up filming in Fiji in May.

4:27 It's the start of a new era. We're resetting things. are you optimistic? Do you think that the 50s is where we start bringing it back or do you think that there isn't too much evidence as of yet that Jeff is going to listen to fans? I guess because it's constantly the same of Jeff does what Jeff wants to do. >> Yeah, I'm mixed on that because I think if you asked me at the start of the season 50, I was like, "Oh, yeah. I think they're it looks like they're making some changes, but it seemed like the same old same old." And the one thing that I am pretty optimistic about is that it seems like they're leaning more heavily onto some of the older old school tropes I would say. So you see like the marooning I'm pretty sure we're going to get things that haven't happened. I think there was one quote where they said this hasn't happened since single digits.

5:21 So I'm like wondering what could that what could that even be? >> Must be >> I know because they've had maroonings pretty recently. I'm pretty sure they had marin like in like game changers. I feel I want to say >> do you trust do you trust that the guy who said it actually is a super fan and know the difference between single digies and maybe like [laughter] other season? >> I do. I do because they do cause super fans and I wouldn't I don't think the editors would put in that quote if it wasn't true. So I'm thinking it might be like a >> Oh no, it happened in 13 where it's like what is it? where they betray their tribes. What's it called? I forgot. They did it. >> Yeah, it's mutiny. >> Mutiny. Yeah. But it would I guess it wouldn't be mutiny, right? Because it's that was season 13. So I >> one and done.

6:11 >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, apparently they did do it in season seven, I think, or in Pearl Islands, but >> Johnny Yeah. Johnny Fairplay talks about a lot where they gave them a chance to mutiny. And Johnny Fairplace said, and this might be revisionist history, but if they were going to do a mutiny, they should all just mutiny all at the same time. So they would force an early merge. They kind of put a ka wash on that idea until season 13. So I thought that was quite interesting. that would be a good thing to bring back bring back the mun because aren't they doing like two tribes of 10? I think it's like I feel like two tribes of 10 is always like either go between three of six and then do that once every five seasons and then just >> Yeah. >> You know, two Tribes of 10 is like the perfect amount, right? >> Yeah. Well, I will like, you know, we're critical as fans. We can never be pleased. We're always going to criticize Jeff, you know, no matter what and the producers because we're passionate about the show and we want it to do well.

7:07 But one thing we have to give him credit for is the fact that at least we're moving. Like I don't know how much credit we should give him because I mean it did take 10 seasons for him to move away from the from this whole small six person tribes. >> Yeah. And finally we've got two tribes of 10 which I'm excited for. I'm excited to see what that's going to do in regards to strategy because we're going to finally have bigger pockets of people that can play. And if one player is on the outer early in the game, there's a chance for them to get back in a 10erson tribe. in a sixperson tribe, you're a sitting duck. As soon as you make the wrong first impression or you're just not someone that vibes with the rest of the group, you're in trouble. So I'm looking forward to that. It became very stale towards the end of that era. One thing that I found very interesting is that I saw online that this season has the most amount of alternates ever from previous seasons that were casted >> to this season.

8:01 So these was players that didn't make other seasons, they were alternates to that season. Do you think that's going to change the way that the game play is going to go this season? Because we've had alternates make it onto the show before where they've played almost Yeah. Like Rick Devin's and they've played like it was almost like they were playing with house money, right? And they would I forgot the person who was in 49. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> The African-American guy with the glass. Yeah. That guy. >> No, I was thinking I was the gamer. The gamer guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think that's going to what's that going to do? Like, do you reckon that's going to elevate the gameplay? These are people that got so close before, weren't ever on, they finally get to play the game. Are you excited to see a cast full of maybe I don't know how many there are, but I've heard that there's quite a few. >> Yeah, I Well, the thing is it's like it depends what type of alternates they are. If there were alternates from like season 18, like, oh yeah, I was supposed to be on token chains and I've had to wait 20 years, then that would be really exciting, right?

8:59 Because like what could have been? If it's like, oh, I was supposed to be on 48. I don't know if that really matters that much to be honest. I think it Yeah, I think that maybe they'll play maybe a little bit harder, but I think the whole thing with 49, which by both simultaneously hated and loved was that they made it like really obvious on like what the behind the scenes were. I think it was >> who it wasn't Savannah, it was the lady that came third, I forgot her name, Sage. and she was she was spilling all the billions about what had happened. I kind of want to see the people pregaming on the season to be to be completely honest. I'm sorry to say, but like if these people are so motivated that they're willing to break the rules before they start the game, I kind of want to see that even though they probably shouldn't be on this season. So I mean, you know, I'm again I'm 50/50 on that. I think it should be pretty good just to see if they bring that into the storyline or if it's like after the fact we just do like a regression analysis on oh these players actually were quite good there.

9:58 It turns out they were alternates and then maybe we can validate that theory. >> Yeah. Wally welcome to the live. Danica I don't think so. I never watched Traitors New Zealand as of yet. I've heard it's a good >> Have you seen Have you seen the AU trailer for the next season? They've got some pretty big hitters. So, what they've got traitors Australia coming back. >> Yeah. Yeah. And there's Kirby's going to be on it, I believe. the guy from not two seasons ago that came that did really well but didn't win. He was like a fallen angel. What was his name? AJ. AJ's going to be on it. It's going to be some pretty good cast members. And I think I think what Gretle Kleen's hosting it or something. So, it seems >> So, it's a new it's a new a new host that's hosting Traders Australia. Yes, Trey's AU cast. He's going to >> We might lose some people here that [laughter] >> you I can talk offline.

10:51 >> Shangled. That's Survivor. That's Survivor. Shangled. >> Okay. >> Trying to keep it keep it on. Yeah. >> Yeah. I've watched Traders Australia. I've never really watched Traders New Zealand. I've heard good things about it. And Maki, who Danica also will know, who's got his own channel. Go check that out if you're not aware. It's one of the recommended channels in my YouTube channel. He has behind the scenes worked on some of the traders stuff in the past with Traders New Zealand. I don't know if he's involved in the new season at all. but he's always talked it up and he's always enjoyed Traders New Zealand. So, I've heard good things about it at least. The only funny enough, the latest Australian Survive episode I watched was the one where the girl from Traders New Zealand got voted out because she absolutely tanked her game. but yeah, it's a good episode. [laughter] >> It is a good episode. It is a good episode. So, but yeah, I wanted to talk about, are you, Andre, are you a Grey's Anatomy fan?

11:42 >> No, I never got into that. That was a while ago. That was like 25 years ago, right? >> Yeah. Well, apparently there's an actor from Grey's Anatomy, Devin Wei, in this season for Survivor 51. >> Okay. >> So, I'm wondering like what the angle is here with getting him in. Maybe there's some Grey's Anatomy fans in the live. If you're a Grey's Anatomy fan and you know who Devin Weey is, let us know if he's the popular character. If you know, kind of is he like the Billy Eyish of this season? They're trying to like get new viewers to come into Survivor to watch because he's >> playing. It's the Lisa Walt of the season, right? It's kind of like, oh yeah, somebody from 25 years ago that nobody really knows unless I guess you're over the age of 40, I guess. >> Yeah. Well, apparently Grey's Anatomy I think is still going. like I think it's going it's like 20 seasons in or something like that. I think it's still people can correct me if I'm wrong here.

12:33 I don't watch it but >> I want to know what the what the crossover is between Survivor Watches and Grayson. I'm actually pretty sure it's quite like quite large. >> Yeah. Danica's asking if I'm going to be watching The Challenge next season. And yes, I will. I watched the challenge 41 as well even though I didn't talk about it on the podcast. I do enjoy it. And Andre, there's going to be a couple of survivors in the Challenge 41. Chris Underwood's back. >> I think Michelle Fitzgerald is playing again this season and people will have to remind me if there's any other survivors that are playing. I did see the cast very briefly, but I will be checking it out. Maybe what I'll do when the season is on. It just depends on if it overlaps with Survivor because I don't have the amount of free time that I used to have when I used to do two or three different shows on the podcast. It's very hard to commit and to sort of stick to two shows.

13:23 But I'll at a very minimum watch it. So I think every couple of weeks I could come on and just talk about my thoughts on a on a general live or do some sort of short form content on it if people want to hear more of my thoughts on the challenge. Also very happy to see Danica that Nelly T will be back and he finally gets an opportunity to come back. Danica is asking what is the scoop with David versus JP? Is the show changing to a network? Will JP be back? So, for those that are only US Survivor fans, David Gennut, former winner of Survivor Australia, became the host in the last season. and it was a bit of a blind side for JLP, who was the host of Survivor up until that point. I think he was like 11 seasons in or something that he was the host of the show. And there's a lot of rumors in Australia currently that the show might not be renewed beyond the season that they're filming right now.

14:14 There's a there's a season that's being filmed, I think, in Malaysia. You can correct me if I'm wrong on that one, Andre. And that potentially it might change networks and go to network 9. Is it seven? Seven or something like that? >> I think it was nine when I saw it last time. But and that they're also in the talks with JP to come back. The only way that they'll buy the rights is if JLP comes back to host it. Are you aware of any of these rumors, Andre? I >> I don't know any of the rumors. I haven't been keeping up to date. I always assumed that the reason why they fired JLP was because David offered to do it for free because of his massive windfall on Dono Jill Island. That was my assumption, but there might be some behind the scenes stuff. >> I feel like last season was Yeah, I know you haven't seen all of I feel like last season was edited well. It was hosted pretty well to be honest. So, I don't I don't see why they need to, but I mean I know that people love JL, but I just don't know why like why they would make why they would rock the boat so much, right?

15:10 Maybe the maybe the ratings weren't are not that good and they should probably just honestly if it's if it's a choice between no Australian Survivor and maybe like a celebrity Australian Survivor, I'm choosing a celebrity Australian Survivor and All Stars or something like that. Just keep it for all for all intents and purposes and try to cut the cost and just like it's a honestly I'm sorry to say, but it's a higher quality product than the US version. I will be I will be honest with you. For me personally, like I'm already I'm on the outer with Australian Survivor since JP was let go. Like I really enjoyed JP. I thought he was a great host. similar to Danica. I would even love for him to take over from Jeff as like an interim host for maybe 10 seasons or something like that. >> He's about 10 years younger than J as well, so he could probably do another 20 seasons. Like he could be a very decent host for a while.

16:01 But since he's left, like I don't have a problem with David. The first three episodes in, there's nothing that I'm looking at. >> He's really good. He's really good at the second half of it. Like the first half he's kind of like a little bit stilted, but JP was as well, but the second half he was pretty good. I think it's pretty universal. It's like, yeah. And actually, he actually brought us all over. >> Did a good job. >> Yeah. And like I said, I don't have a problem even up until this point. I'm not watching like some people will watch the show to criticize. I'm not watching it to criticize him. But the one thing that will definitely be the thing that will get me from watch like will stop me watching Australian Survivors if they make it celebrity versions. Like I am just not interested in that personally. Like I'd rather not watch Survivor than watch a bunch of celebrities go out there and play. I want >> as long as the celebrities are fans or at least they want to play the game cuz actually the funny enough it was kind of like the original Australian Survivor.

16:52 I think they ended with an a with a with a celebrity version which was the best version of the original. Not that it's saying much, but yeah, >> it could be it could be surprisingly good. Who knows? >> Yeah, I would give it a shot, but I just I don't find it interesting to watch celebrities play these shows. I want to see general people go out there and play the game. In fact, I feel like sometimes they put too many influences on it as it is right now to be honest. But >> yeah, that's just that's just my take on that. Let's see what Danica is saying here. I thought David did a good job, but I missed JLP. I think a lot of people didn't watch. They should comp compromise and have JP do Allstars and David do newbies. I just don't think >> do American Survivor to be honest. >> Same. And I don't think JP as long as Survivor stays with Channel 7, they did him dirty. Even if they were to come back to him and try and get him back like he would not come back, I don't think work with them just out of principle. I don't like you can't come back.

17:44 Yeah. >> Yeah. Zudman, welcome. Welcome to the live. Danica is saying, "Just for kicks, keep count of how many times David says all right in the early episodes. I could be drinking. It could be a drinking game." Okay, I'll keep track of that, Danica. There's a few episodes for me still to watch to catch up on that. But, yeah, I guess looking back at Survivor 51. we spoke a little bit about, you know, the advantages, I think, in our previous live when we spoke about the end of it where it's an open era. There's going to be all advantages potentially in play. I think we came to the conclusion, Andre, that most likely what we will see is like a an advantage island theme or an immunity island theme where when people go on the boat or I would hope it's not a boat. I would hope it's an earn like earn your right to go there or the winning tribe chooses someone from the losing tribe to go to it or something like that where it's not just a random let's put our you know our dyes in a bag pull it out and whoever gets it is the one that's getting going on the boat because it's just a game of chance in that case.

18:47 But we're thinking that there's going to be this island with like a survivor menu that you can choose advantages. And I tell you what, looking at this Netflix show, Insiders USA, right now where you have to sacrifice something to get an advantage or to get something. I feel like you should almost not a vote, like can Survivor get more creative with what they could sacrifice for advantages in the future? And what could that be? Like if you're on the island, Andre, you're on advantage island. you see that there's a mutiny up for grabs. You're in a tough spot, but to get the mutiny, you need to sacrifice something. Like maybe that sacrifice is that the tribe that you mutiny into or you're in loses the next reward challenge, you know? Like, can we get more creative with the things that you lose and not mess with the vote? >> I think that the beauty of Survivor is that you shouldn't have to get rid of your vote or sacrifice your vote or anything.

19:42 You should if you're going to get a if you're going to get at something, you should sacrifice your political capital, right? So, your idea is quite good where it's like, oh yeah, you're burning political capital or if it's the other tribe that is sort of that is choosing other person, you're like begging the other tribe, but then your current tribe sees you as a traitor. Those are the types of things that are really interesting where it's like it's not a vote. It's actually like it's kind of reminds me of Redemption Island where Matt goes and shakes the other person's hand and like Rob's like, "No, we're getting rid of you straight away because you burned your political capital here." You like So, I think that is what would make it way more interesting to me where it's a little bit more dynamic. It's a little bit more emerging gameplay rather than Jeff on some sort of high horse saying, "Oh, you're going to lose a vote or you're going to lose the next three votes or something like that." It's like, Jeff, that's not interesting.

20:33 I understand the idea >> or Jeff being absolutely shocked when people tell him, "I'm screwed right now because I've lost my vote and I can't play my shot in the dark. So, people are going to choose me as the easy vote, you know?" And then he's like, "Really? Is Survivor really that simple, Christian? Yes, it is. I don't have a vote. I can't play my shot in the dark. Like, you've absolutely screwed me in the game." So, I just feel like there surely is more creative ways that we can bring advantages in. You sacrifice. Like I mean imagine you go in there and you want to get an immunity idol, but for you to get that immunity idol, you have to sacrifice your tribe's next immunity run. So you lose individual tribe immunity for the tribe. You're immune for that tribal. So you don't have to play your hidden immunity immediately. >> but again, burning capital. What would what would a team think if you were willing to sacrifice all of their safety for an advantage in the game?

21:25 You know, it's like we were we were saying it was really good when Aussie went to Exile Island because Aussie was obviously protected and I think he brought Rizo with him, but what did he actually sacrifice? He sacrificed being at the pivotal vote. Oh, no. I think it was earlier than that or something like that. I think he went to exile like twice, but he's like, you know, this was such an important vote or that was such an important time like informative time on the island. I need to be here. Okay, yeah, I get immunity, but at the same time, I lose out on my influence. And I think that's a little bit more interesting where it's like you know he didn't lose his vote or anything. He didn't get screwed. >> It's just like, you know, it was kind of like the classic Exile Island where it's like it becomes emerging gameplay. I think that's way more interesting. It's like if you're going to get some sort of like oh, you know, a medallion of power or something like that. Yeah. You know, you should you should just not be there for the first tribal council. You don't need to like steal your vote or anything.

22:18 >> Yeah. The vote just seems like it's we've seen it. It's done. We don't need to go down that path any further. Do you have any other thoughts about Survivor 51 and the open era? Have you had time to sit down and think about it in the sense that you know >> what it could mean for Survivor? What are you are you optimistic I guess going into this new sort of era of Survivor? >> Yeah. Well, I hope that they continuously change things up and I think that criticism that I have and I think a lot of people have around the new era is that it wasn't it was too sy. It was you know the exact same format. people kind of it became so unpredictable that people knew what to expect. which made it kind of almost you get the worst of both world where you're >> both it's unpredictable so you can't plan around it but you kind of know to expect this so it's kind of like it doesn't become exciting so you kind of have like it's universally hated at that stage.

23:09 I hearken back to like you know the difference between you know season 18 and season 19 right so Samoa and Togen jeans two completely opposite seasons right in terms of gameplay in terms of structure you got back to basics and then you've got like this ultra modern Russell season and I hope that we get something like that where it's like look this is completely departure from the old the old way from now on we're going to be a little bit more creative could be too it could be too could be like we went from a 24 season to a 20 season. The next one might be a 16 season or there might be another 24 season. It might be like full of twist, might not be full of twist. So, I'm optimistic in that regard until, you know, 52 comes along. It's going to be exactly the same as 51. Then I'll like and then I'll temper my expectation. [laughter] >> But I'm pretty excited because I want something different. >> Yeah. another thing we kind of touched if we're talking about things we want to see differently, we touched on Australian Survivor earlier in the live and we were talking about, again, I always try and not compare the two shows cuz they have become such different shows really.

24:13 But the one thing that Australian Survivor for me, there's no debate about it just actually outperforms the US Survivor and is the challenges. Like the challenges for me to your point like they rinse and repeat the same challenge from 49 into 50 or 47 into 48 and probably going to be the same for 51 into 52. It sometimes feels to me like there just isn't enough variety in the challenges that we're seeing in US survivor anymore. like there, you know, Jeff is trying to make it equal and fair for everyone where there's like this there's this physical component to a challenge, there's an endurance component to a challenge, but then there's also the puzzles at the end of every single challenge. >> Do we actually need to see a puzzle or a dexterity challenge sort of towards the end of each of these challenges? Do you get what I'm saying? Can it sometimes just be a like how we used to have something very simple?

25:07 You'd go to the beach, there's this big ring, you've got sandbags that you've got to carry. You got to run around the ring, try and catch the other tribe, and then if you want to bow out, you've got to give your back to the next person. Like, why can't we see these classic survivor challenges that used to be, I feel like, a lot easier to follow, simple to put together. It's not going to be a big budget to put it together. the one where they're on the podium with this the big sandbags gladiator style and they've got to knock each other off the podium into the water that like Yeah. like why don't we see those kind of challenges more and >> yeah know it's the same thing that I was talking about with Jeff and trying to sort of you know add this randomness and complexity to the game that doesn't really need to be there sometimes it's okay for the game to naturally favor some people and other people know and over time sort of you know you have premerge you probably have like six different immunity challenge challenges that you know one might favor you know summit See, they might favor physical people, they might one might favor balance, one might favor sort of intelligence.

26:12 So, it's kind of like you can do that sort of and it's kind of like the luck of the draw at that stage. Again, I'm hopeful that if they have two tribes, then it can be more mono type of type of challenges where that's why Survivor Australia rarely goes to three seasons anymore because they want the big like, you know, Titans versus Rebels or heroes versus villains. They want they want the big like tug literal tugofwar, right? just have a tugof-war. It's not that hard. It's like, yeah, okay, it's going to fade the others. >> Yeah, >> it's easy to follow. People get engaged. Like the other one that I like another thing from Australian Survivor that I really liked and I don't think they've done it unless they've done it this season since the first Brains versus Water, no, it was the Brains versus Brawn, sorry, season. Do you remember there was this one challenge at the beginning of Brains versus Brawn where you had a choice?

27:03 You could take the puzzle route or you could take the brawn route where you had to chop the like I think Gerald ended up doing the chopping. >> Gerald. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I really enjoyed that angle of thinking and I thought it was creative. I'm surprised that we haven't done more of it and maybe it's because of the complexity of the design of it because you have to technically design two challenges for every challenge that you do. But I like the idea. >> Yeah. But I like the idea of giving the team the ability to choose. Hey, we think we can out brawn this tribe or hey, we think we can outsmart this tribe by doing the puzzle component of it. But then you at least play into tribes strengths in the game and also you leave the choice up to the teams that makes it a very interesting thing because some people will not agree that you should take the brawn route or some people will not agree that you should take the puzzle route, the smart route in that moment.

27:54 And again, it would just add that extra sizzle to challenges that I just don't feel like I have anymore. Like I remember when I first started podcasting about Survivor, it was back in Survivor 41 with Jake. He was my co-host at the time. Jake would always tell me he never watched the challenges. Like he would forward through the challenges and then just watch the strategy cuz he found it boring. And I was never like that. I always used to love watching challenges. But I will tell you what, when we started doing 50, I started becoming to the point where I would watch it at 1.5 speed or something because it's just it feels like rinse and repeat the whole time. Like I don't find challenges interesting anymore. And it's a it's such a big component of the show. Like sometimes they will let us watch a challenge for like >> 30 minutes, you know. it can become massive parts of the game, but for something to be such a big part of the show and be boring, I don't think it's good for survivors longevity personally. Andre, >> yeah, I was never I never really liked the challenge to begin with.

28:46 And this is just like even golden era. Like I'm good. You know, if there's an interesting challenge, I'll watch it. And I do admit I do watch some of the Australian Survivor stuff because some of the Australian Survivor stuff, not to bag on the United States Survivor that much, but it's just they lack the creativity that Australian Survivor has. You haven't seen it yet, but there's like kind of like the auction type of challenge in Australian Survivor this season. It's not really, it's not an auction. It's kind of like it's like a it's almost like a game of poker where you have to sort of bluff what the advantage is and it's just like the entire challenge is them just trying to bluff each other and it's just it was really good TV because it's like then it brings up do you want to burn your political capital? Do you want to burn your social capital? you and it becomes quite interesting rather than just seeing people like, you know, save all their money for $500 and then get a get and then they did a they did a well in US Survivor this season, you know, to be clear.

29:42 But like I'm actually quite interested whenever there's like this big grand, you know, US Australian Survivor Challenge, they do that really well. So it's like I was always say just flip a coin. Just we don't need to watch the challenge, just watch the watch the strategy. But like you can design good strategy and I reckon half the people out there are watching it for the challenges. So at least put some effort into it, Jeff. Like stop being lazy. Stop being lazy. Seriously, it's like what does he use >> what does he use for the excuse? We're on a budget and everything cost a lot of money. But you can you can put very simplistic challenges like the early days of Survivor had simple challenges that were more appealing to watch. And I'm going to bring a couple of comments up here. Zudman's given us a few. he says here absolutely they need to change the challenges. there are 50 seasons of challenges plus they could take from Yeah, that would have excited me if they said we've got like it's the open era.

30:38 All challenges survivor is back on the menu as well, you know. why are they replacing the challenges from the se why aren't they replacing the challenges from the season before? That's crazy not to watch challenges pre-new era because pre new era survivor was exciting to watch. challenges was exciting to watch. >> By the way, why aren't they putting like idols in challenges anymore? That was such a good twist. And I have we done that in the new era. >> Like we haven't done it at all. Like do the more of that stuff. It adds like more tension to it. >> But then you have to remove the ship island journey where they go and get one, you know? >> Yeah. God forbid that they that they >> while somebody while somebody does a challenge like a like a puzzle challenge or something. Who cares? >> Yeah. God forbid someone draws the short straw, gets on a boat, and is given an idol by doing some sort of a challenge on the island.

31:31 Like, because that's what we as viewers really want to see, Andre. We want to see someone get on a boat and do like hold a bucket of water up above their head to get an advantage, right? rather than actually >> on the arm, then you broke last time you were on Survivor, by the way. [laughter] >> It's crazy. I don't know. Like, you can't make these things up. Like how do you Andre, how do you get in such an echo chamber, right? Like in such an echo chamber that you just you don't have any appreciation of what fans really want or like is it just because let's be real between me and you, Andre, like there's certain pockets of the Survivor fandom when you go on to Reddit or something like that they can get quite toxic. I'm not saying all fans, but probably Jeff has probably seen some of that stuff and has isolated himself from the fans where he's just like, "Oh, there's absolutely no good feedback there." So now he doesn't listen to anyone. He doesn't even listen to reasonable voices out there.

32:21 >> Yeah. I mean, if you if you like it's a business, right? They're a production business. They're selling it to the network. at the end of the day, it is a business and they're thinking like, you know, you and I are in business, right? So we need to find ways to basically sort of max, you know, cut costs and maximize sort of the amount of productivity you can do, right? >> So I kind of understand it on sort of a business point of view and I can understand it's like look, we've got a family here, you know, it's a group of 100 people. They're in production. We've got a good relationship with Fiji. I get that. I get all that. And it's like, okay, we've got a good sort of process going. It runs like it runs smoothly. It runs like butter. we don't really want to change anything. But, and we see this all the time in business where a company will get sort of a little bit too comfortable. They rely on their old ways. They don't innovate anymore. And then eventually a competitor will sort of, you know, come in, swallow them up, right?

33:14 Not really the same because Survivor is Survivor. but you know, something like, you know, Coke and Pepsi could come in where Coke is Coke, but then it was challenged by Pepsi. And maybe it's just they need a little bit of competitive pressure. Maybe they need something like the traders to sort of, right, really challenge it. So, they get kicked into the competitive mindset. And that's my take on it. I think they just a little bit >> a little bit static. And, you know, Jeff is getting older. He's, let's be honest, he's probably getting a little lazy as well. Like if I was 65, whatever, I wouldn't want to I would be lazy, too. Like I wouldn't want to necessarily >> You're happy with good enough when you've been there's a reason that you know the best, you know, >> I don't know where I was going to go with this, but you need fresh people constantly coming in with fresh ideas. And I feel like if you've been in >> a company for 25 years, at some point you're going to get you're going to run out of ideas and you're going to run out of energy.

34:09 And that's probably where Jeff is at the moment. let's see what Danica says here. Aayod does more endurance challenges. I feel like the production at USA wants things wrapped up by lunchtime. true because Jeff needs to go for he needs early nap. [laughter] >> Danica says, "Carrying bags in the water chasing the other team is low budget challenge. That is great to watch." Agree. they haven't even done idols in challenges since 34 and now we're on 51. >> Wow, >> that's crazy. >> Has been that long. Traders, Big Brother, Love Island are kind of challenging Survivor. Yeah, it's a shame that the challenge isn't also because I really enjoyed the challenge. I don't know why it is. I think it's because of the network that the challenge is on. People don't take it seriously, but the challenge was on CBS. It would it would kill it. and there's certain things like I mean we can nitpick at that show as well if we wanted to. Can nitpick at most shows if we want to.

35:00 But >> yeah, I wanted to Is there anything else you wanted to talk about Survivor in general? Survivor 51. Before we go into doing a bit of a legacy tier ranking of the players that played Survivor 50, is there anything else you want? >> Yeah, let's do it. I don't think there's much we know about 51 that isn't sort of like leaked. So, yeah, let's do let's do tears. >> Yeah, I think this will be fun. We spoke about this when we finished the previous live and we thought it'd be fun to come back after things have settled, look at the cast for the season. And what I've done is [clears throat] kind of got I've got the placement of the players all the way from Jenna Lewis to Aubrey. [snorts] And we're going to start off with Jenna Lewis first and we're going to rank them either legendary, great, mid tier, or low tier.

35:51 We'll try and keep it snappy on some of these players. There's a few that went quite early. and we'll place them. So, I think legendary would be these are the guys that are pushing towards Mount Rushmore, pushing towards top 10 survivors of all time. Then that they're in that legendary status. If they're not top 10, they're probably great. otherwise, mid-tier, sort of your middle of the road, they could be great. They're not low either. They're sort of middle of the road. And then low tier probably the ones that we've seen enough of them. We don't we don't really need to see them. They're lower tier than they're not a priority. That maybe they from a different era because for me personally, if I start with Jenna Lewis, I would advocate for her to be lower tier at this stage because I feel like I've seen enough of her. I don't need to see her coming back for her era, she was probably mid to great, I would say. But currently, as it stands with the full body of work and all the players that I would try to form, well, let's try to formalize because Zudaman is asking this question.

36:48 I have the same question like how we honestly is it is it like post 50 overall sort of legacy or is it like because I feel like there might be a little bit of sort of recency bias here right if you had a really good season you might >> so I think like maybe we need to balance it out to say look like >> okay >> like Jenna Lewis is not a low tier like she's a mid tier to me right because >> okay I would agree on that basis I would agree I would say after on season one. I mean, >> yeah. >> Yeah. So, I would say after 50 overall legacy, where do we place them? And >> yeah, mid tier, but I'm happy to not see Jenna Lewis again at this point. Like, I don't think we need to see her again. >> But you can't put like take away from her that she was on season one. She went to final three in All Stars.

37:38 Like, that's pretty that she coming into it, she was great. Like, in my op in my in my opinion. I think maybe some people might have had her mid to low because they don't quite remember her, but I mean in my mind for sure and I think that it did push her down to mid tier saying that there wasn't much of legacy. She's kind of like on the same tier as Jervis I would say. >> Okay. well I'll let you go and because I started off with Jenna Lewis on this one. Where would you put Kyle? >> Kyle I guess started I would say Kyle he's a winner so I guess he can't be a low tier. Like I don't think any winners apart from maybe like three or four can be a low tier. I would probably say that he is mid tier with a chance to go up in the future seasons. But I think as it stands right now, there's just too much recency bias. he didn't make a deep run this time. So >> but he got injured.

38:29 You can't I don't feel like I feel like almost whatever happened this season, you can't mark it against them. And you almost just >> you can only >> I would say I would say you could only mark Kyle based on his season that he won. And this is hard for me because I haven't finished the merch section of that season. I only saw the post merch section and I will go back and watch it. >> But from everything that I've heard online and what people are saying, he's probably one of the three best winners of the new era. So >> I know but that's not a No, I don't think that's a high bar. It's like top third of fifth of the se of the I don't know >> Jenna or you'd have to put him ahead of Jenna, right? Because of them winning. >> I guess I guess so. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Was Jenna close to winning? it's probably not. >> I think I think if she if she got there against Rob, she probably wins.

39:21 If she got there against Amber, >> it's 50/50. >> Yeah, >> probably. >> It's not it's not an indictment for Kyle. I don't I think that Kyle is a good player. It's just that you know season 49 was sorry season 48 was a little bit of like >> a strange season I would say because of the whole Joe Eva situation. >> and I know I feel like it wasn't that hard of a cast to win against to be completely honest. Maybe I'm just being like very critical of Kyle but >> I just don't see him being great. There's too many great people out there. >> Yeah. And for anyone that is watching this that is a big Kyle fan. They only started watching new era. I apologize that I'm not here fighting for your boy Kyle right now because I just can't like I haven't watched the postmerge portion of the game. So I don't know if I can fight for him to be higher than what he is currently on this.

40:12 So I'll have to go I'll have to defer to you. >> Yeah. And also to not to not to not to derail this on a talk about D, but I think he's very comparable to D, but D on all metrics is much better. So it's kind of like I mean yeah we can talk about D when we get there but we can put that in sort of like perspective I would say. >> Now Savannah is an interesting one as well like based on the current metrics of what you've given. I can't see putting Savannah higher than Mitia either. because she went early in this season. She played a game in her first season that was interesting because I don't think she was the most socially liked. Even her tribal council to me was her final tribal when I watched I knew she was going to win because she was coming back as a winner this season. But I was like >> the way she answered some of the questions I could see seasons where she would have lost based on her jury management and how she did the final tribal.

41:06 I don't mark her down for winning a bunch of challenges to get to the end. In fact, I mark winners up for doing that. I see them as clutch winners when they need to win their way to the end. So, I'm opposite to the fandom in regards to that. so, but I would go mid tier. And I guess what I'm asking you is having watched both of their seasons, she's a winner. I will again say a winner needs to go ahead of Jenna Lewis because they've won the show before. Where would you put her? Would you put her ahead of Kyle at this stage or would you put her behind Kyle? Because to me personally, and I've watched all of the other seasons, I at the time when I watched the season, and I'll have to go back and watch again, I thought she was I know you like Kenzie a lot. >> I thought she was the second best after D personally, but I haven't watched K's season. >> So, the way that I see it is that I think they're generally equal when it comes to just overall. However, I think that and I think this is what's more important in this particular context considering they played they didn't play similar games but they have kind of like similar type of legacy is that Savannah is a significantly better character than Kyle is.

42:11 I mean she has a better story. She's more of a dynamic character. Kyle's probably a slightly better player but in this particular context I think just in terms of legacy you're going to remember Savannah more than you remember Kyle's game in my opinion. I think I'll put her above Kyle personally. >> To totally agree with that. we've got Mary back in the live. Hey, Mary asking if we'd do Love Island. are you into the love shows at all? Andre, would you would you have much to add for Love Island? >> No, I' I don't think I've seen an episode. I feel like I've seen people from Love Island on other TV shows, but I would >> on challenge like the traitors, I think, as well. And maybe I think also maybe the House of Villains. I'm not sure. >> Yeah. Mary says Aubry got two goats. Anybody was going to beat the flops at the end. D is still mother.

43:02 I don't think I would do Love Island. Like no shade to Love Island. Like it's just not a show that I think I could sit. I really like competitive reality TV shows. It's kind of the genre that I see myself in. And I love the social political vote each other out. >> Trying to get you into the genius, mate. That's >> Yeah, I know. I will at some point we'll watch it and we'll talk about it for sure. okay. Now, [laughter] are we going to make an exception for our man, the myth, the legend, Q? Like, where do you put >> I [laughter] thought you going to say RGO. Like, what the hell? >> I know. I was like, this is this is going in the wrong direction. I love Q. Like, I absolutely freaking love Q, but where do you put Q as a player? Like, he went deep his first season, tried to quit at one point, still went deep. He's like a legendary character. >> Yeah. Yeah. But where do you put him as a player? Like that's you surely can't put them above the winners, can you?

43:54 >> Well, no. I don't think you can. I And I don't want to be putting everyone into mid tier. I know we're start at the start of the season, so I think that people are naturally going to be >> I can I can think of like maybe two people that I would put in mid tier just from the entire car. I mean, sorry, low tier from the entire cast. >> Yeah. >> I feel like it would be a disservice to low tier and to Q to put him there to be honest. >> Yeah. But I think I'd put him probably behind. Well, the thing is it's like where these people are kind of ranked on an axis. Like we ranked Kyle on the axis of gameplay. We rate Savannah on the on the axis of being a pretty decent character >> and sort of like the history and the legacy of Jenna. So I think that we need to put Q in mid tier just for being a character. but there's no way that he's above anyone else at this stage.

44:46 I just don't agree. Unfortunately, I like him, but >> I want to put Q at legendary. Like, I really want to put him there. Like, cuz if it's if this ranking was purely based >> on character, he's by far the most legendary character that has come out of the new era. For me personally, >> him and him and Caroline would probably be the two characters. >> Yeah, Caroline, I would say. >> Where did she get that one from? What? What? >> She was she was massive. She was mess up in her season. >> Sue was bigger. Sue was way I enjoyed Sue way more than Caroline. [laughter] >> I don't know if you're joking or not. >> Isn't it Caroline like the one who played Traers, right? Like Caroline. Am I getting the name wrong? >> I'm thinking Caroline from season >> from Yam season. >> From Yam season. >> Oh, Carolyn. I thought you were like Carolyn. Sorry, Carolyn.

45:37 Carolyn and would be the I was like why is this such a >> why is this such a hot take? Like she was massive. Like I feel like she's not Yeah. She's not everybody's cup of tea, but she was massive. >> Oh yeah. Okay. Carolyn. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I would see that. I would say she Yeah. >> I was like so confused. [laughter] >> That's okay. Okay. I feel like we're going very heavy on the mid tier at the moment, which is good for like it means that Survivor 50 did a really good casting. It'll be hard to get somebody on low tier because they I think before the season we're like saying this is like a legendary cast like >> like yeah I could probably still like fit to low tiers to be honest and I we'll get there but yeah I think this is natural and I think legendary is going to be later on in the season to be honest. >> Yeah. Well it's tough because you the next two people both made it to the end of their first season that they were playing but they came back and didn't do too well in their second go out.

46:31 First being Mike White. where do you go with Mike White in at this po point? >> I'm probably the worst person to I'm not a Mike fan. I like I know people like Mike. I'm not the biggest I liked Mike at the start of the season to be honest. I'm like, "Oh, this is a new Mike. This is this is not what I expected from Mike." And I think before the season we're like, "Eh, >> we're pretty we're fine." >> I don't know. I'm tempted to say let's put him into low tier, but I think that I'm going to get a lot of push back on that from the community. >> I just I'm trying to think like what made Mike so good in his first season? Like I can't remember how he kind of got to the end to be honest. >> Is it just because he's Mike White? Like strip away him being Mike White, the human the out of the just take him for who he was inside the season.

47:25 I think I don't know if we can do that in a in a in a tier ranking. Maybe we can't. Maybe the fact that he's Mike White just automatically elevates him to at least mid tier. >> I don't I don't That's it. [laughter] >> I'm similar to you. I don't mind him as a player, but I like again like when I first hit the low tier, I was kind of thinking these are the players that I don't want to see again. And I kind of like Mike White for me is based on that definition towards the lower tier as well. Like I'm not fighting you on trying to get him. Like it just feels very harsh when we know he's made a final three before. >> I don't see anybody in the in the in the comments really pushing back yet. I mean I guess Mike kept the Goliath on track. I guess that's true. >> but I mean it was it was a I mean the Goliath were a pretty decent alliance even though they lost. >> >> I'm going to put them on low tier. Like I tier now people can hate us for it if they Yeah, they might they might hate us for it but I'm not too worried.

48:20 >> [snorts] >> okay. So, Angelina, like first time that she played, very exciting to watch. >> very messy. Second time a bit of a dud and I don't know if it was just because of >> Yeah, I don't know if it was just because of the way that she was edited. They didn't show her funny moments. She's just slowed down. Yeah, I heard that there were funny moments or there were some awkward moments, but I think I think the narrative the canonical narrative is that she's sort of grown up as a person. Like, you know, she's had a kid. She's like or maybe she had kids before, but she's sort of grown up and she's sort of a little bit more mature. That's what we saw canonically. But I hear that she was kind of like a little messy still with all stuff. >> I'm gonna people are going to hate me. I'm going to put a note here. I'm going to put a head off mic at this point. Like maybe Yeah, maybe pushing.

49:10 >> Would you say I'll play doubles. I'm not saying that she should be a mid tier, but >> I would say she's probably one of the stronger characters of 30s if you think, >> but it was such a massive letd down like coming back this season. >> So was Q, I guess, right? Like >> no Q was Q. No. You cannot say that about Q. For the time that Q was on the show, he was delivering. He was he was he was competing with Christian for the most confessionals at that point of the game. Like the camera loves Q. They keep going back to him. He's got exciting and Q got swap screwed massively. I feel like Angelina couldn't find an in first try. Couldn't find an in. >> Yeah. So I don't know. I'm just going to put it there. Now this is a person [laughter] I feel like we've suddenly gone very hard on people, but Charlie like where do you put Charlie? Like Charlie, the again maybe not a bad player, but the Eder definitely did not put him in a >> in a favorable position because they buried him.

50:06 They made him focus on one thing, which was the lady that betrayed him in his first season. And he got so pigeonholed on trying to get Rizzo out of the game that he couldn't think strategically about anything else. And probably he did, but the edit makes me feel like he's not like he like was is it sort of a testament of how bad his season was and the way that he got as deep as he did? No, his season wasn't bad. He was the worst thing of his season. His season was a good season and he was like he was kind of like it felt like an episode of Rest Development where Charlie was the Michael. I don't know if you if anybody if this is going on in someone's house, but he's kind of like the straight man of the season, right? And everyone's insane around him. like there's Q, there's Venus, there's Maria that's just completely backstabbing him, but he's kind of like the he's to me he's the boring part of the season, right?

50:59 It's just it just >> oh, I'm strategic and I like Taylor Swift and that's my whole character and then this season it's like, oh, I'm I have PTSD from Maria and I got dunked on by Rizzo. I think that deserves a low tier to be honest. I don't know if there's anything I'm missing about Charlie >> exactly Charlie who's Charlie like >> sorry >> I feel like Charlie's one of but like the best thing that happened to Charlie this season was the fact that he had this it's the best and the worst thing is the fact that he had this rivalry with Rizzo because I can see a season where he comes back just for that storyline to continue just like how they kept bringing Jerry back to play with Colby you know what I mean like is this the Jerry and the Colby of the new era of Survivor where they'll just keep bringing them back or the Aussie and the coach or you know the Russell Hanss and the Rob. you could see a season where these two come back as captains playing against each other or back in a blood versus water season with their loved ones and there's this rivalry.

51:58 >> Mary, we're not interested in Charlie versus Brazil. [laughter] >> Yeah. No, I'll put Charlie at the back. I'm not I'm not that phased to be honest. Camila, where would you go with Camila? I think I think the Camila for me is probably the last low tier. I'm not gonna I'm not actually I might not like commit to that to be honest. But for me, I'm not I'm not a Camila fan. I think she played second fiddle to Kyle the entire the entire season of her season. I you didn't see it, right? or maybe you did. >> I have to defer to you. >> Yeah. So, it's kind of like she is a boring version of Malcolm in my opinion to be honest. Malcolm was interesting, but the exact same thing happened to her as happened to Malcolm where it was kind of like the two biggest allies of the season. They have to turn against each other and Kyle won and Denise beat Malcolm because Malcolm sort of couldn't commit.

52:53 So it was exactly it was for me it was kind of like the exact same position. She plus she got I mean I guess she got one in there with against Charlie I feel I feel it was against Jonathan >> but Jonathan had the last life. So, I mean, for me, I would probably put Camila before Charlie, though, to be honest, just because of my disdain for Charlie. but yeah, >> the real rivalry that we all need to see is Andre in a fans versus favorite season against Charlie. That's the season that we need to see happen. >> I don't know. I don't think I'll be very light because I'll probably put a lot of shade on Taylor Swift, I guess. [laughter] >> Yeah. All right. Well, here we going into a very interesting one for the next one. where would you go for Genevieve? in this >> she's loved by the fandom. Like absolutely loved. I do think Genevieve is a great game player.

53:44 I liked her first season. She wasn't she was a bit disconnected from the whole, I guess, emotional part of the game that is required for you to get to the end and have a jury vote for you or want to see you win the game. So, it would have been interesting to see even if she did get to the end if she would have won that season. And then this season, she played a great game as well. I thought she between me and you when we watched it looked like the better one of the two between her and Aubrey. Like she was the one that was trying to sort of you know built those bridges with Aubrey and try and work with her but Aubry was very shut out for shut down from doing that. >> Postseason content Aubry's come out to say that we only saw a specific part of that and that she actually tried also to work with Genevieve. But, you know, that's what we saw as fans on the show and then ultimately she got screwed because she found two Billy Eyish idols that she couldn't use. where do you see it?

54:35 Like some people are saying she's overrated. Some people are saying mid. Like I'm really I'm struggling with this one. Is she high or low to mid? >> No matter where you put her, there's going to be people that are pissed off. And I think that alone, the fact that she's so polarizing, >> I think makes her deserve a mid tier at the very least in my opinion. >> just because look, she >> on 47, she played a pretty good game. >> I think she played a better game than Rachel. I didn't rate Rachel's game that much. And I think that the way that she positioned herself was pretty genius. and I think she was pretty close to winning. probably one of the closest to winning that had never won to be honest considering that she didn't get to the tribal council. That's a lot of there's a lot of people in that tier. this season she got just incredibly unlucky and I think people have been saying that she is the most unlucky person in Survivor history and that's pretty that's a pretty high bar actually.

55:38 There's been a lot I mean I guess apart from maybe >> but to be in the same conversation as Si deserves a mid tier at the very least I would say considering her results haven't been the greatest. I think that, you know, just the fact that of all these things that happened to her, and it might not be because of her, it might just be consequential, but I think just that on top of being a good player in 47 is enough, I think, for a mid tier. I think she's probably around where Kyle is in my opinion. But >> yeah, I really enjoyed watching Genevieve come back and play this season. I didn't know how I felt about it at the time. I felt like the fans were just like some fans are just absolutely standing her and I thought it was maybe a little bit overrated to be honest, but she came into the season and looked like she was never in trouble when it came to the social game and working with other people and then obviously the idols came back to screw her the whole swapping into a tribe with Aubrey and >> she won two Christian she found two immunity idols on any other season.

56:38 She would not have been voted off in that situation. She would have been completely safe. She just got she just got tremendously unlucky. >> Yeah, I totally agree with you. And also I know Genevie doesn't want to come back and play the game again. I really hope she changes her mind. I hope that >> she said she would go with her husband. I believe >> Yeah. So, I'm hoping I'm hoping we see another Blood Versus Water. I'm keen on another Blood versus Water because I also think that it'll be interesting to see Riggard and Lizard go and play the game. She seems like she's got a really funny personality as well. So, I don't know if you saw the latest I think it was Tik Tok that they did where Liz God woke Riss got up in the morning to go do a fire challenge in the backyard. Like it was really funny and she's like you got to dig deep. >> Yeah, she's funny. She's hilarious. I'm like she >> she's positioning herself to be on a blood versus water, I'll tell you that. >> 100%. okay, now it's going to be interesting.

57:32 Colby started off as I guess a runner up in his first season to Tina, made a mistake to take it to the end, >> comes back in All Stars, leaves before the merge. probably because he was the biggest threat that season like he nobody was ever going to let him go deep and then does reasonably well in Heroes versus Villains fifth place and then got to what you would normally classify as a merch in the season and then absolutely got again screwed by a twist this season. He seemed socially like he was in a really good place and that people weren't necessarily going to gun for him in the immediate. Like I could have seen him last a few more episodes or even potentially with that old school alliance. He could have taken a bit more control in the game but it just didn't work out that way for him. Where do you see Colby? Like I mean if we're looking at people that will be remembered forever in Survivor circles like he is one of those big names.

58:28 Will he be the first player that we put above a winner in this ranking? Where do you sit on him? I >> I think you I think you know the answer to that. I'm going to make a suggestion. I don't think I'm going to get too much push back from you. Maybe from the community, but I mean he's clearly legendary. Like there's no >> like he's Colby >> and I think this was a perfect final season. I know that you said like oh you know we don't like low tiers. You don't want to see him. Like I don't want to I don't really need to see Colby again. But this was a good ending to his story. It was kind of like the Logan. This was like kind of like the last Ronin, you know? This was like this was his sort of farewell package. And I'm happy about that. Like I'm at peace. >> He's Colby. He has to be in legendary. There's like no it's like >> anybody in the first two seasons that should be on legendary apart from like Rich even he's probably higher than Richard Hatch to be honest.

59:20 >> I agree. I well I think if you go just based on the character alone which we haven't done so far so I think I'm going to have to be the one like I thought I would have to fight for him here. I probably would say great pushing towards legendary on this one because when we started the podcast I said legendary is probably they're approaching that top 10 >> you know sort of bracket they're approaching that they're approaching that potential Mount Rushmore conversation or things like that. He's probably not there but I agree with you. I think as a character he's legendary, right? But I think as a an overall game play I probably put him in great I put him towards the upper great bracket pushing towards that. But yeah, I love the fact that you're high on Colby as well. >> I mean I have to push him up to legendary personally. Like that's what I would do. I don't think he I think I No, I think like it's one thing like it's one thing to be a top 10 player of all time, but to be like a household name to have kids named after you >> like the only like it's kind of like the only people that are famous like that is like Kobe and like Rubbert like that's it.

1:00:24 That's like that's like in terms of even >> I'm going to have I'm going to have Rushmore characters maybe and I totally get where you're coming from. I think I'm going to have the audience most of the audience are not happy with their status. So [laughter] they bump they bump. We knew we knew this would be controversial. I like Colby as well. let me just see. Colby, what did what did he do? Did the edit favor him? >> It's not this season though. It's kind of like his work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. so I think audience didn't like Colby when I was 14. Still bored of him 25 years later. Colby is not legendary. yeah. I think he's great. I definitely wouldn't bump him further down than Gray personally as a character, as a household name. I agree with you, Andre, for the record. He's legendary. I totally agree with you on that. but for this ranking, I think Great probably not quite in that Tony Poverty, whoever is like top of the crop conversation for legendary status.

1:01:22 >> One of the problems when it comes to the tier ranking, right? Because there are different tiers for different How do you mix those in? >> It's true. Like at one point I want to do a ranking just for who's the biggest characters like that. Like cuz to be honest with you, the Gamebot strategy characters are the one that I'm the most bored with normally. I like the characters personally. I like the chaos. I like the that type of gameplay. So that's when Tony won. It was so good for me because we got a character that won twice, you know. So I really enjoyed that. Okay, next person. D. Now, here's where we start having serious conversations about >> does D start pushing towards legendary in my mind because she was the best new era player for me personally to win the new era. She was the best winner. I enjoyed her season because of how cutthroat she was.

1:02:12 She was in control throughout the whole thing. She was the I think the first female player to cut her showmans or to like outplay her showman's getting to the end and win it. She kind of did the Boston Rob. Yeah, >> the first Boston Rob all the way to the end. And for me personally, I want to put D legendary. Like I really like her gameplay. And the fact that she came back as a winner and got as deep as she did. Some people will say that she got caught out towards the end. She played a bit messy, but to be honest, she was the only winner and she was playing with house money and people were coming for her in any case. So I felt like she had to play with her back against the wall and just throw a couple of hail Marys. probably talked to a little bit too many people, played a little bit too messy. But if she played in a season where she played with other winners, I think her gameplay would have been very different. >> She kind of like is in the same kind of tier as I would say maybe like a Kim or a Ule, right?

1:03:04 Where Kim and Ule's kind of I know I think Kim's higher because Kim is the only one that put up a fight against Tony. Maybe more simil but I mean I feel like this is it's hard to say today because today we're in 2026 and she just played. If we wait 10 years time, she'll probably have the same reputation as like a Kim or a Yule. Right now, there's no way like people like always say like no way that she is even a conversation, right? 10 years time, they probably might be. So, I was going to say maybe like bottom of great maybe or even high mid because we're in 2020. But I would say if you're saying legendary, I would say I would I would I would accept great for sure. >> Yeah. So, we'd have to we like surely like she's above Colby at this stage. Like and I love Colby, but I feel like she's pushing towards legendary in my mind. Like >> I don't know what other people are thinking in the in the live here, but I think she's definitely pushing like for me as the best winner of the new era.

1:03:58 >> Kim is higher. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I mean Kim, we're not ranking Kim right now, guys. Kim's not on this board. Okay. [laughter] Okay, let's have a look. who else do we have? Co coach. Coach, this is going to be an interesting one. Andre, you know, I'm a big coach fan. What's your thoughts on coach? >> Well, obviously he's legendary character >> 100%. >> South Physics showed that he was a good player even though he didn't win. >> yeah. >> And I put him on great. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> you'd have to put him above Colby. I feel like you'd have to >> Colby if I can't Yeah. If I can't have Colby and legendary, then I think I think Colby and Coach are in the same tier for the similar reasons, I would say. >> Yeah. >> I'm not sure if anybody like what does it what does the community say?

1:04:48 Yeah, definitely great. >> Definitely great. So I feel like he's definitely above Colby. Probably behind D at this stage for me. So we'll put him there. Chrissy. Chrissy was another one of those ones that the fans absolutely loved Chrissy in her first season. They were all saying she got robbed that season. I'm a Ben fan. Don't mind Chrissy, but I could see why Chrissy didn't win because she did. >> she was very condescending to some people on that season and she didn't play the social game that great and that is why she lost in the end. I could see that the reason for why she didn't win. she came back this season with a big reputation. Showed at times that she can play a good game, but she got tanked ultimately by coach's game this season. And I know you're a big Chrissy fan. Yeah. >> Where does she land? Like I don't know if she's great or if she's upper mid tier at this stage.

1:05:38 Do you put her above Savannah and Kyle? Like who's won the show? Where do you Where do you sort of lean towards? >> I am I am a big Chrissy fan. Like I love her. I think her season was very good. even though she probably would have lost to Devin's to be honest. or Devin, not Devin's Devin. but I'll put the bias aside. I'll try to put the bias aside. Let's be honest, like she's in the tier with Charlie and Camila. They both have I think they all played pretty similar types of games. She lasts a little bit longer than Camila and Charlie this time, but she was never in a position really to win, I feel. So, >> she's surely above Angelina and Mike, I would imagine. >> I just I mean, if you went down to like Reddit or something and you said, "Who do you prefer, Chrissy or Angelina?" I think most people say Angelina as a character to be honest.

1:06:31 >> Okay. >> To be honest, I mean, >> yeah, probably >> I love her. It's just I just don't think that she really has that much of an like a >> legacy right now to be honest, unfortunately. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll put it down there. Mary's saying once again she was not able to work with the woman and let the crazy man let her go down in her demise. Yeah. >> She ruined her reputation, which is unfortunate. Yeah. Okay. Stephanie is not very welll liked. I feel like online by a lot of but as a but >> it's kind of like the Kobe situation. You kind of have to say like >> I'm gonna separate all the online stuff and I'm just going to look at Stephanie the player in this in this regard. Where do you see Stephanie as a player in >> as a player? >> Yeah, she's a terrible player. >> She's a good character. She's a terrible player. [laughter] I think her being actually like her final tribal council just being so abrasive and she always seems to be abrasive.

1:07:31 I think that kind of elevates her in a way in a bad way >> to probably make her >> like All right, so let's take her entire history. She >> she was very wellliked in her first season. She was very abrasive but made it to the end in her second season. She was never going to win. She was a bit of like a Joe. but you know built her legacy a little bit. then she had a falling out with what James in Heroes but she was on Heroes Versus Villains. Just being on Heroes Versus Villains probably means you're not low tier. >> So I would probably make an argue for being sort of like maybe a Jenna Lewis maybe slightly higher than >> Yeah. >> Like if you if you spoke if you were on the street saying you know Stephanie or like who's more who's more recognizable or Stephanie. Come on. even Jenna Lewis or Stephanie. I reckon Stephanie would be more recognizable there.

1:08:22 So, I feel like Stephanie would be above. >> And you do you reckon she bumps Kyle? Is that what you're sort of saying? Is that what I'm getting from you here? >> I think I think there's a there's an argument to be made that at this moment she bumps Kyle just because of her breath of work. >> I mean, she's also on other reality I know we're not ranking other reality TV shows, but she's good enough to be on other reality TV shows, right? >> I would say she's probably above Savannah as well in that regard. She's probably like towards the top of mid tier, >> but she isn't I don't I don't know. I feel like I would have I would have Savannah a little bit higher. >> Okay. Yeah, I like Savannah. >> Like I Hey, I like between the two of them, I like Savannah more. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right. next person, Christian Hibiki. one of the best confessionalists. Is that a word? Confessionalists. confessional.

1:09:13 >> Yeah. One of the best confessionalists of all time. you know, great at survival, great at strategy. You know, where do you put him? He's played twice. He's gone deep twice. He's a great character. He's fun. Like, I don't know. Is he great or is he upper mid tier in this in this scenario? I feel like he's upper mid tier potentially not great yet. I don't know why. Am I being too harsh? >> I would say he's actually not the best player, but he's an excellent character. Like as much as I want him to be a good player, I just don't think there's a body of work to prove that he's a good player. Like he's not very good at diffusing his threat level. >> he has a good strategic mind. We all know this, but just he can't seem to put it together because he's too much of a threat. >> And he's always seems to be a target, but when it comes to characters, I would say he's probably just underneath the tier of coach in terms So, he can't be higher than coach, I feel, because I feel like this might be crazy for me to say, but I think coach is a better player than Christian.

1:10:17 I don't know if that's crazy or not, >> but he I mean he's just more of a he's a different player. He's like more of a control. So, I don't think he can >> I feel like he's I feel like he's top mid tier. Like, I feel like he's >> Yeah, I was going to say he's above Savannah because he's just a better character than Savannah. he's a better and he's like >> Yeah, I would say that's a right place to be with the potential of being up like if he comes back a third time. >> I think he can. And I want to see Christian play again. Like this season wanted me like made me want to see more of Christian in the future. Maybe not in season 52, but you know, 55 or something like that. Let's see him play again potentially. >> Yeah, I see I see Dreadful Ruby saying that coach is offputting. which I mean he I think I guess he is right to a lot of people, but I just feel like >> that's what makes him so good. Like it's like you said earlier, it's the people who get you to feel something.

1:11:10 Like you don't like I don't want a bunch of potatoes on my screen. Like this is why Jeff has become scared of casting villains cuz he's too afraid to offend people >> and that's why he pushed down that's why he pushed down Kobe to the bottom of grace, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Because he is a bit >> too much of a nice guy to be honest. So yeah. So 100% we need the characters. Okay. So Emily you know what I've >> I like Emily sometimes. I sometimes like Emily and I sometimes just don't like her at all. and she can be very frustrating to watch. But again, to my point just now, if I if I feel some sort of way when Emily plays the game, she's not low tier potentially in that case. She's got to be somewhere towards the bottom of mid tier, maybe the middle of mid tier because she does get a reaction out of the crowd when people watch play the game, you know.

1:12:04 So, and she does have some good reads. She just gets in her own way all the time. She talks too much. She's boring most of her season, but there's like two or three episodes where she's like really controversial and I feel like anyone else would have just been voted off and I think it's a miracle that Emily wasn't voted off in some of these situations because she gets in her own way. I would I mean I would probably put her at the top of low tier personally. >> I think she's above [clears throat] Genevieve to be honest. I think yeah, I do think I think she's not above Q, but she's above Genevieve for me. Like I think Genevieve is a little bit over overrated. Like she's great >> and she's in that mid tier, but I think that Emily's gotten deep twice now. She's had more moments than Genevie for me in the two seasons that she's >> a lot of people are saying Emily is mid, too.

1:12:56 So >> I don't feel super I think I have a lot of hot takes about Emily, too. So it's like I'm willing to defer. [laughter] >> Okay. Aussie. Aussie, legendary character of the game. >> If Aussie won this season, we would have talked legendary, probably even >> potential top 10 player. >> He didn't win this season, though. >> He ended up overplaying. We know he's not a great survivor player. He literally needed Serei to hold his hand through the season to get as deep as he did. >> Where does that leave Aussie? I don't think you can put Aussie mid tier. I feel like he has to go great, but maybe towards the bottom of great. He is in my mind the complete equal and opposite of coach. I think he needs to be where coach is because their story somehow converged and you can't separate them now. I feel like those two come as a pair like ever since South Pacific.

1:13:50 >> even though they came from completely different places, it was kind of like a weird combination to begin with. the fact that they played together to the fact they had like such a massive rivalry in South Pacific and then this season. I think that you can't unlink them and they're there for different reasons. But I think that the duality of that makes it perfect in my opinion. >> Okay. Tough decision though. Who goes above who in this ranking? Is it coach above or is it >> Yeah, >> I guess it depends on what you value, right? Do you value >> For me personal buyers, I would go coach. I just love coach. I love the hypocrisy of coach. [laughter] I love him as a character. So, I would go with coach probably. and I just think Aussie sometimes can he gets a little bit too self-righteous sometimes for me. >> So but again I like them both sitting. >> He was good. He was not he was not that bad. He was quite good socially this apart from the whole like his fin like him just completely bunting it.

1:14:46 I would personally I would put coach higher, but I can totally >> Do we give it to the Let's give it Let's give it We've annoyed the live audience a lot today. We've a lot of them are saying Aussie on top. So, we'll put Aussie on top because I feel like we need to give the live audience a win here, Andre, because we ended up we vetoed them on Colby. So, I feel like we owe them this one. [laughter] >> So, you the live audience is they've won this one. We'll take Aussie on top of coach on this one. See, we do listen to you guys sometimes. >> [laughter] >> We give we give you every now and again we'll listen to you guys as well on the on the rankings. Now Rick Devin's like >> like he is definitely great but it's where are we putting him in great is the big question here. >> Can we put him above coach and Aussie at this point for me personally his body of work in two seasons I would advocate for him going above them because I feel like I love the risk risky players.

1:15:43 I love like I mean no one else has ever done a flip of a coin to up the auntie to 2 million and to put their whole game at risk >> and I don't know I just love the whole back against the wall play and the bravado of the guy and planting an idol like does anybody like probably only Tony does more than Rick Devin's >> in the game of Survivor and it like Rick Devin's if he had a win under his belt we would be talking Tony levels here with the way that he plays. I 100% agree with you, but let me play devil's advocate for just a moment. So, she's he's a two-time player. He's never won. He's been voted out three times. So, how does that [laughter] >> am I am I just too in love with him as the showman? I probably am just too in love with >> I think there is an argument I don't think there's an argument of him being a good game player, but I think there's a good argument of him being a good character and a good showman and being generally quite likable.

1:16:37 I think everybody likes Rick Evans and I feel like >> bottom great then bottom great then for sure. >> No, I think he's higher than KBY. I feel I feel I think people have sort of convinced me that Colby doesn't deserve an legendary and now I'm sort of running with it. I'm like a put Deans above Colby. You know what I mean? >> I love I love Devin's. Like I mean come on like twist my arm I'll put him above Colby in this and I mean Col's great as well but you know I just he >> he has a really good like game when it comes to his like theater is tribal council. like I've never seen anybody that good in changing tribal councils >> and it's just like that skill alone I think he's unsurpassed in that >> you know he probably he's probably not the best socially but when it actually comes to tribal counts he's able to sort of switch things over which is like very >> so here's a question for you Rick Devin's comes back season 52 is he an early boot because he's just like you survivor is about playing the game with predictable players you don't want unpredictability with you and you know that Rick Devin is unpredictable.

1:17:48 Unless he can find his Christian and he can like team up with someone that is in the knowhow, surely Rick Devin is going to be one of the biggest targets coming back in the next season like 52 or 55. I reckon >> my question is it an all-star season or is it like kind of like an edge of extinction type of season because that changes >> like I would always I would always advocate for allstar seasons. I don't like the half and half seasons, but if it's an half and half season, >> I also think we're going into an era now watching Australian Survivor this season where players are just wanting to gun for these returning players. They don't want to set the >> full Allars. >> Yeah, I think that I don't know. I don't think he will be the first or like the biggest target because I feel like he would never come back if it isn't a legend season or I mean the most likely scenario would be a legend season, right? where it's like if you if you see a lineup and you see Devin's, you see Tony, you see Johnny Fairplay, you see just like legends of the of the game, I don't think that you're going to necessarily single out Rick Devin's.

1:18:50 Even if Aussiey's there, if I see Aussie and Rick Devin's, I'm like I could probably get rid of both of these guys to be honest. >> Yeah. >> so I don't think there's anything that really like I think he's the most dangerous postmerge and I think do you let him get to postmerge? Maybe just get out get him out sort of the end of sort of the tribal phase. >> Yeah, totally. Okay. Well, this next person I think there's going to be the biggest agreement from the live audience here so far. She's definitely legendary, right? Like >> what can you say about Sid that hasn't been said yet, Andre? Like I feel like she is just great at this game. She's gone deep so many times. The only thing the only thing that she doesn't have is the ability to win clutch challenges at the end of a season to get her there. and she had this game unlocked. She had everything planned the way that it should have gone with Aussie willing to take her to the end in the game.

1:19:43 It was just Aussie outplayed himself to go early in this season. And we could have very easily have talked about a cereb win this season if Aussie stayed in the game and if he could have protected and been that shield for her. So I thought unluckiest like unlucky is unluckiest player maybe still the unluckiest player in Survivor history ever. Like I don't know. >> I think I think she has very she's been on the wrong side of variance a lot. But I feel like the way that she's been unlucky, it's been consistently unlucky over a long period of time. Whereas someone like Genevieve isn't necessarily unlucky. She just got really badly unlucky all concentrated in one go. So I think like overall terms of luck just because she has more surface area that she's by far the most unlucky person, right? But in terms of concentration, I then again it's like all right let's go down the list.

1:20:36 So, in her first season, she couldn't start fire, right? So, is that is that's how she got voted off, right? She was on final four, she couldn't start fire, >> believe so. That's so long ago now. Like, I feel like it was. >> Yeah. So, that's >> someone in the chat let us know. >> Yeah. Someone in the chat. Then she was definitely unlucky in Micronia. Should have definitely won Micronia. >> she kind of got I would say she got unlucky in Heroes versus Villains because she got on the wrong side of JP JT. But maybe she should maybe she didn't like JT is like legendary when it comes to like being a little bit playing on House of Money, I would say. >> Yeah. >> and then I think she was the most unlucky in game changers. So I think that it's sort of like >> yeah, she's pretty unlucky, but there are things that she could probably have changed.

1:21:28 I feel like and then also if we factor in Australian survivor then it becomes like another even a more interesting discussion. My real question is not the tier that she's in but does she end up at the top of the list by the end of this tier ranking? >> That's going to be an interesting question. >> Yeah. Well, let's we'll be a very Yeah, I can already see where you're going. I can already see where you're going with this one. Okay, Tiff, where do you put Tiff in this season? tiff. >> I know you're not >> really hard. >> I feel like I feel like you're not as high in tiff or you weren't as high in tiff when we did the last live of the season. >> for me, I was quite impressed by her. I like the fight in her. I think she's great at confessionals. I just don't think that the editors did her justice throughout the season with the fact that they just didn't give her content because every single time that she spoke to the camera, she was entertaining and funny and she had great takes.

1:22:23 So, she seems to know how to move in the game reasonably well strategy wise, but it is a tough one. Like, I don't think you can put her higher. I don't think she's low tier for me personally, but I don't know how high she goes in the mid tier. I don't know. I feel like if you just take if you ignored that season 50 was season like if it was the most recent season, if it was in a different order or something like that and we just took two of her separate games in isolation, it would be hard to say that she was in mid tier in my opinion. If we're factoring in sort of confirmation bias and she was in like sorry no recency bias and the fact that this was against like literal some legends of the game then you could probably make a case for her being pushed up to mid tier. I just feel like look at the end of the day it's a TV show.

1:23:16 And unfortunately she was under the mercy of the editors and the metas did miss serve her and I didn't see anything from her in the first in the first sort of like half of the game. So, I'm going to have to I have to like knock her down to maybe the top of low tier just because of that. And it's no fault for her but I just don't see that. I just I didn't connect with her as a character. I didn't know where she was in the game. I didn't all I knew that she kind of vaguely had a alliance with Sri S and she was almost close to wing apparently. >> I will be >> I will be the devil's advocate to that take obviously because I think she doesn't deserve to be in low tier as well as the live audience I think as sort of on the like a few people were saying that she's probably more great. and I will talk about the fact that, you know, I think that when she was given the opportunity, when the edit didn't purple her, she was entertaining to watch and she was entertaining when we saw the confessionals.

1:24:13 Plus, let's not forget that the women won like three individual immunities this season, which was pretty impressive as well. >> You rank people up for that as well. So, >> yeah. So, I do I do think that's pretty good. So, Tiff great in front of all of all of them for me over Rick Pard. I think it's over Rick M. Don't be rude. if she had Spencer in it, we would have been talking about her as we talk about him and Wentworth. I would put Rick legendary. Honestly, I love Rick as well. >> So he is veryizing it looks like. [laughter] >> Yeah, don't tempt me. I also watch her YouTube videos every week. So got all the details from her end. Anyway, okay, that's good. I didn't know she had a >> that isn't Yeah, that isn't canon. That's like saying like, oh D was on the challenge. Like we can't really factor in the challenge or anything like that, right? >> Yeah. What's up? >> We've got to remember that when you listen to these players, like I will go check out her content as well.

1:25:04 I didn't know she had a YouTube channel, which is cuz I do find her entertaining. I will say that again. the problem is just that after the season, we're all the heroes of our own story. And we will always talk about why we were hard done by everything after the season, I think, because we all would believe that we were playing the best game. if you don't believe that you're playing the best game out there, why are you going out there to play? Loen saying, "Are we ranking Zack Brown?" No, we're not drinking Zack Brown. calm down live audience. Calm down. I think for me personally, you're low. I think mid at least. I think the audience is great. it's just where I think she's a she above Genevieve. Is she above Emily? That's the question. I would probably put her there at this point. and in your defense, Andre, it's because we didn't see much of her early on. And >> yeah. Yeah. >> Maybe if she comes back for a third season, this will change drastically.

1:25:56 The thing is I liked her in her first season. I just feel like she got completely hosed by that >> and [snorts] I just don't I feel like she was after who was she aligned with? She was aligned with Camila, right? Was it? Oh, no. She was aligned with D. >> She's aligned with D. As soon as D got off, she was kind of like in no man's land when it came to actually strategy. And I feel like she could have act easily. She was like a sitting duck at that particular stage. but I guess maybe I just don't rank immunity wins as high as other people, right? >> Yeah. >> For me, I just didn't see anything. >> But I still think she was entertaining. She the I think the thing that ranked me got me to rank her higher was the fact that when she got her opportunity, she delivered for me in the confessionals.

1:26:48 Like I don't rank her down for the fact that the editors didn't give her any content pre the merge, but then when she had the opportunity, she could have fumbled. She didn't fumble. They she became a bigger character as the season went on, which to me >> showed that she's got the chops to be in survive and I want to see her play again personally. But and again, I like the immunity runs. Yeah. okay, Rizzo. Where do we put Rizzo? RZO is an interesting one. I think that also polarizing for some people. Some people love Rizzo. People are not that big of a fan of Rizzo's. he got third two times in a row. playing the game both times. Sorry, not third, fourth. and got basically knocked out at the fire making portion of it. >> I think we also establish >> Yeah. I think we also established if he was there instead of Aubry, he probably would have won as well. >> Good point. >> It's a good point.

1:27:40 >> Yeah, cuz I guess it would have had to be he had would have to have won the immunity challenge. sent Aubrey in and Aubrey would have lost. But that's kind of like maybe fanfiction at that stage. >> Yeah. Yeah. I do think Rizzo like I've had times where I've gone back and forth on him. Like his first season to me when he played I didn't rate it as high like I was like why are they bringing this kid back for a second time? Because he like the biggest move he had was holding on to the idol. He talked a big game about and I do think Rizzo talks himself up to the camera a lot and says he's doing things that he's not necessarily doing and it and it looks good on camera, you know. but I think you have to just based on the fact that he twice went out on fire and that he got so deep backto-back games. So you got to put him probably somewhere towards the bottom of great at this stage or top of mid tier. Like that's kind of where I'm sitting with Rosa at the moment.

1:28:30 >> I don't see him on great yet. I feel like if he comes back in like 10 years time, you know, he could he could be legendary one day. but I feel like it would be a disservice to not put him with Savannah. I feel like him and Savannah played very similar games actually originally. U even though he had an idol. they're kind of intertwined in many ways. It's just that yeah, the fire making things kind of like a mark. He's a good character. I think he's a very polarizing character, but I think >> that's a good point. Can you put him above Savannah who actually won the season that he was in? Can you actually do that or does he Well, the thing is just behind her. >> If Rizzo won 49, would Rizzo have gone further than Savannah is my question. And I probably think taken out at a similar place. So, I feel like I feel like he was able to capitalize on Savannah winning, which is yes, >> all power to him.

1:29:24 >> but also you can also say the same thing about Savannah where Savannah was penalized for winning, right? Because wasn't it like weren't they planning on saying that like Sophie had won or something like that and then they would have said no I'm not but then they then they realized there were three winners and it's like well we can't lie so we need to actually tell the truth. So I think that Savannah was screwed by production. [laughter] >> Yeah >> they weren't able to see >> I feel like I feel like he's there somewhere around >> I would put him above Savannah. I think he's a better character than Savannah but I mean I wouldn't begrudge him being under Savannah. Okay, let the audience break the tie here. Audience, do you think that Rizzo goes above Savannah or below Savannah on this rankings? let us know what you guys are thinking because I'm kind of feeling like probably below. I also feel like Steph should be in low.

1:30:14 Fair enough, Zan. These things are hard, by the way. Live audience, it's very difficult when you've got a cast of 24 people. Everybody's going to have their own favorites. It's not easy to rank. I promise you. Okay, so we've got the first person coming in saying below. I also feel like below. But let's see what other people Okay, one person's saying above. So Mary's saying above. Dreadful is saying below. Do we have a third target? I would say above. Okay, so Zudan is saying above. >> Validation that they're kind of similar. They're very like even if people are saying above below. >> Yeah, they're kind of similar to coach and Aussie. They kind of belong >> next to each other on the rankings. I feel like Okay. we'll see if there's anybody else that says anything, but for now we'll have Roso above Savannah. let's get into Joe. not well liked by the fandom. Andre, >> this one's hard because he did like Okay, so he did get to the end both times, but for very different reasons from Rizzo, I feel he got to the end because he's like the greatest probably one of the greatest goats of all time.

1:31:14 And of course, you're going to bring Joe to the end, right? >> so I don't really like count that as something in his favor to be completely honest. I will say he brings something a little bit different to it, but he doesn't really bring too much different from something like a like a Colby, right? It's kind of like a similar type of gameplay in a way to Colby if I'm not mistaken. >> >> yeah, >> I feel like kind of but I feel like he's less like I don't think Colby is as stubborn as him. Like I feel like Colby would still >> Yeah. No, but this is the thing. I think he's he is more like coach than he is like Colby. I feel I think that the amount of hypocrisy it's like Colby sorry Joe is >> is coach if coach wasn't a parody essentially >> I think coach is a parody of Joe where Joe is like completely oblivious of his hypocrisy the entire season he votes out all of his all of his all of the people he aligns with except for I guess Eva.

1:32:19 So he brings he does think something different, but I just think there's this sheer unlikability about him in a way that in this fan community that it's hard for me to escape. >> So I don't know. I >> I'll let the let the audience decide. They all say the bottom. So put him at the bottom. Put him at the bottom. Like everybody's like it's the easy one. Put him at the bottom, Chris. like again if like Joe's not watching this, but if he did watch this, I just want to say Joe, I think you're probably a super nice guy in real life. We're just talking about you as a Survivor player and character on our screens. Like, I just don't think it's entertaining to watch. But can I say one thing? Out of all the people in the low tier, Joe's the most likely one to come back and play again. Like, I reckon Jeff loves Joe. >> Yeah. I guess the only argument is that, oh, he went to the end both times, so I feel it's invalidated by him being a goat.

1:33:10 Like, just because you're a goat doesn't mean that you have good gameplay. I feel >> Yeah. >> All right. But compared to him and like say Charlie and Camila and is he above them in any way just by sheer results or anything like is there any [sighs] >> above Charlie results? >> Yeah, it's possible. It's possible. Like he's got to final twice. I didn't watch Camila's season in the first time. Like did Joe give us more than Charlie gave us? I feel like he did to be honest. Even if you just even if you didn't like him much in his two seasons like he gave you more than Charlie. Charlie wasn't an entertaining character >> in a way. I think he both simultaneously made the season better but made it also significantly worse.

1:34:02 Like the [laughter] the reality where Joe sort of and his like band of like you know the what is it the loyalty allian >> you know what we just give the audience what they want. Let Joe be at the bottom. Let's just get let's leave it there and call it a win and keep moving. Let's go to let's go to Jonathan. Jonathan's another one that's going to be interesting because a lot of people are not going to like Jonathan that much. I feel like he's from a different era and if he was playing a different reality TV show might be more popular, but Survivor, I don't know if he fits the archetype of a Survivor fan favorite at this stage. I like Jonathan personally. I do >> in hindsight like I still I was low on the win for Aubrey. >> I know a lot of people commented afterwards that Aubrey absolutely deserved to win. She was better at jury management. I still think that the audience gave Aubrey the win based on legacy rather than just gameplay for that season.

1:34:58 But I also am not oblivious to the fact as to why Jonathan lost. Like we were faced with three not so great options in my opinion at the end for who to win this season. because Jonathan does at times come across as not that socially aware like when he was celebrating and things eating rice with his hands like there's certain things that they just pointed out where you could like clearly see he's not he's not the most socially aware right so where do we place him like I don't think he's low tier I think he falls somewhere in the mids probably for me >> I was I was I was my first opinion was top of mid I would say probably above Christian because he did better than Christian both his times. He's a character as well, like polarizing and I feel like anybody that would bring him down to like a low tier would be mostly on his personality and some of the things that is said about him about maybe being a little sexist or maybe >> Can I Can I say one thing just while you're while you're talking about that?

1:36:01 I feel like Christians too high. I feel like Christians should be behind Savannah. Like I you we spoke about the fact that Christian's not great at threat level management which I feel like both Savannah and Rzzo was better at >> and both Rizzo like Savannah has won before and Rizzo could have won this season. So I don't know if it's >> if you can really compare and it's then you've got to think about the fact that Rizzo probably would have beaten Jonathan if he got to the final which means he's probably better placed than Jonathan at this stage. But he did. I guess he didn't go to the final is the point. >> He didn't. >> Right. >> But he was playing a winning game where Jonathan >> But neither did Christian. And Christian didn't go to the final either time. He didn't get to the top six final fight. I feel so I feel like Christian is only at the top of mid tier right now because he's the one he's probably one of the most likable person people in the history of Survivor. Like he's in the he's probably in the top five or 10 in terms of likability.

1:36:53 >> That's the only reason he's >> we put him. Okay. We put him there. So where do you go with Jonathan in this case? Can you put Jonathan above I guess Christian is the question at this point. >> I feel like she I feel like we you know he's a total package. Put him next to Stephanie where he belongs, right? Like they played very similar games. Like Stephanie and Stephanie and Guatemala played a very similar game to Jonathan. >> Stephanie would be very happy with that. He's the total package and he's right next to her on the rankings. I feel like she >> I think that's right. That feels right to me. >> What does the What does the community say? yeah. So, Christian pooing himself. >> Yeah. So, Christian's the highlight of the season. Did he really thought Did he really through by antagonizing D and Christian? He was going to get their votes. He kicked them while they were down. Yeah. On with Grace. this is legacy wise.

1:37:44 Everyone is going to remember Christian more than Savannah. Okay. >> Interesting, right? Because we were talking about other people and then we mentioned Christian and everyone likes Christian so much. I feel like even Christian could actually be put up to the great tier. >> Yeah. Now I think we'll leave we'll leave it there. Now the very interest very interesting conversation comes up. >> This is the one that you were alluding to earlier in the in the legacy watch. Aubrey, even though I'm not a fan of her, I think it's only right that like not a fan of strong. I'm not a fan of her game this season, right? I wasn't like this is not the most exciting win that I've ever seen. >> I'm not a fan of her like her as a character. Like I'm not a fan of her in the game. Well, how she is out of the game, I have no idea. I haven't seen any sort of like >> I don't mind her as a character. I was I'm not a fan of her game this season, but I don't mind her as a character in Survivor.

1:38:37 I do I do think that it's only right that we rank her like the jury ranked her on her legacy, right? And not just for this season on her legacy. So when you look at her on her legacy, she's gone to the final before, lost, got second place in a season where a lot of people thought she strategically probably maneuvered the best that season, didn't quite get the win. She comes back in second chances, does extremely well as well or goes deep into the game again, and then she has one season at Edge of Extinction where her threat level probably >> knock her down from that >> players that want to play with her. So I say you almost need to ignore that season. similar to you. Can you put, and this is going to be very controversial, by the way, but can you put her below Ser at this stage. I feel like you can't personally. I feel like I'm leaning towards her being top of legendary based on >> her winning this. >> I think we're both on agroom and she has to be in legendary.

1:39:28 I think I'm That's why I said I'm not a fan of her because if I'm not a fan of her and I still think she's in legendary, then >> that it almost feels like you have to boost her up even further. if you're not a fan and you're agreeing that she's legendary that you almost have to take that into account and in my mind I know this would be very hot take but I actually feel like it's appropriate for her to end this season at the top of legendary just above Siri based on the fact that she's actually gotten the dub which Si still hasn't at this stage. >> Yeah, I mean I tend to agree with you. I think there might be a little bit of push back because she is so popular. Like S is significantly more popular in my opinion than Aubrey. >> but that's not canon. That's the fans that's the fans loving her. That's not the game. >> Is Aubrey a better player than Siri?

1:40:20 >> Is >> well she outplayed Siri towards the end. She went headto-head with Siri and outplayed her. >> That is true. I mean people say that Siri is the best to never win. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but Aubrey [laughter] has won. So, I just can't see I know this is going to be a hot take. I know people are going to come for us in the comments afterwards, but I just can't see a way where Aubrey doesn't actually end the season at the top. >> By the way, Aubrey lost to somebody who came second at Winners of War. or did she come second or like she was in the top three which is >> I mean we can have another podcast on sort of Michelle's legacy now or something like that but >> I mean just kind of like the story line of her kind of realizing why she lost that's a compelling one because it's it shows that Michelle had it right to begin with and then there's no way that Michelle could have beat Tony right like that just it was never going to happen but the fact that she like Michelle in herself is kind of like probably verging on Legendary 2, if not Legendary 2.

1:41:26 Probably lends credence to that, right? Lends credence that, oh, >> Aubrey has played with some big hitters. She outplayed Ser and not many people can say they outplayed Ser. I think there's like in history there's like two people that can say that. >> so that puts her in like pretty rarified terms as well. I would probably sign off on her being legendary despite be being like not the biggest Aubry fan. I think that I think it's a >> Well, I think that is the biggest I feel like that is the biggest testament for why she is at the top of this because you're not the biggest fan. You've got to admit she's legendary. You've got to look at it and say, "Well, she's gone against some of the best to ever play. She's taken out Seron." even though Ser was definitely she ran out of options. I think one thing that like every legendary player has one thing that makes them stand out, right?

1:42:17 Like that makes them that legendary player. Like Sice, the player that got up from the couch and went to go play. >> Tony is the one with the spy shack and all the shenanigans. He's the many what's it the bag of tricks, right? Is Tony's legacy sort of in the game. >> Boston Rob is the buddy system and the mafioso way of playing the game. Kim Sprdlin is just a great allrounder when it comes to the game. Sandra, is there to anyone but me? And I think if you look at Aubrey in the future, what we're going to say is Aubrey is the really the below the radar kind of winner, the one that she was below the radar the whole time. She was playing the middle. She was going wherever the wind was blowing and she made it to the end and made the and kind of learned from, you know, I heard in the offseason that Aubrey did a lot of studying before coming back and playing the game again. and she was studying the type of winners that won the new era game.

1:43:08 Your Marian's, your who's the girl who won 41 the first season, forgot her name now, but Erica. >> Erica, she noticed the trend with a lot of the winners in the season that they don't make the big moves to begin with. They make the big moves at the final five, the final six. They just sort of stick in there and that's what she was kind of emulating throughout the season. So, I feel like >> it's kind of like the process of validation, right? So yeah, you know, we do a lot of validation at work and basically what you do is you see what you have like a theory and then the theory was okay in my season, how did Chris Underwood win or how did >> yeah, how did Chris Underwood win it? I think that's like the ultimate example there. And it's like, okay, I've got this I've got this theory in my head. How does that stack up with all this these data points that I have? >> And that's what that's what drives like makes me think of her game.

1:44:00 Her game is like >> she's taken and she said this herself and this was like my old overarching theory of the entire season was that the eventual winner is the winner that takes the attributes of the people she won against and that's a quintessential example she took from both Michelle and Chris Underwood the fact that both of them played the game with a really strong ending like the last like the final five and beyond was like mastery from both Michelle and from Chris Underwood and I don't think you can argue with that. >> No, totally agree. I think it's a great way to finish this legacy watch for the season and this has been a lot of fun, Andre, talking some Survival with you here in the off season. I hope everybody that joined us today, we talked, we covered a lot of ground. We talked about Survivor 51, the news, a little bit of Australian Survivor before we got into the Legacy, so the Legacy Watch.

1:44:55 So, if you didn't see the beginning part of the episode of the live, go back and listen to that if you want to know more of our thoughts about things to come in Survivor. But I enjoyed this so much. I hope that the live audience enjoyed it. It was really fun to have so many of you jump in and take part in the conversation. Even though you didn't agree with all of our takes, we love you guys in any case. This is what makes the Survivor community great is the fact that we all are very passionate and we all have our own opinions of who we think is the best players to play the game. you know, it's interesting that we've now got a universal Mount Rushmore that people just agree with. But, a very interesting chat, Andre, I think that we will have at some point in the offseason is who is the Mount Rushmore of the new era? Like some maybe wider topics that we can talk about. So, we're thinking about coming back maybe every Fortnite, every 3 weeks or so, we'll come back, do a little live, stay in touch with the community while the offseason is on.

1:45:45 I feel like there's lots and lots of topics and comments that we can talk about. So, you know, after this live, if you want to go back into the comment section of this episode and you just want to put down there any ideas or things that you would like for us to discuss on the channel, we're open to any ideas and we'll come back and we'll chat about that as well because it's too long to wait until September to watch the next season of Survivor. So, we're raring to go. We want to talk Survivor and maybe we'll talk a bit of Australian Survivor when I finish Australian Survivor, the latest season as well. I'm catching up on that right now. But, if you're late to the live, please subscribe to the channel. It does. Let us know that you enjoyed the content. Put a like on the video and let us know what your thoughts are on this latest live. Any final words from you, Andre? >> No, it's this was a fun we've been going for almost two hours. So, >> this is the long I think it's our longest one. I think it's our longest one we've ever done. >> I love these types of podcasts. >> Yeah. So much fun.

1:46:35 All right. Well, everybody, grab your torches, head back to camp, and we will catch you guys next time. Bye.