Survivor 51: Episode 4 Recap | She Had the Numbers… But No Chance?!

0:00 Welcome back to the Nullified Take channel on YouTube where we've got the TNT Takes for you on Survivor 51 episode 4. For those that are watching the live video or here on YouTube and not on Spotify or all the other places we do post this podcast, you will notice that I'm in a very different setting and I do apologize the lighting isn't the best over here, but I'm in the Gold Coast this weekend, Andre, and it is horrible weather. Normally when you come to the Gold Coast, it's great, but I sure know how to pick them. How are you doing, Andre? It's good. It's actually quite nice here. It's been a terrible week in Sydney, though. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to maybe catching a little bit of the sun. Hopefully this afternoon, I'm not sure. Yeah, but I mean, pretty good. I mean, life is pretty good, except for, I mean, this episode wasn't, to be honest. I know, I know. I was excited to talk to you about it, but I wasn't really all that excited about the episode at the same time, if that makes sense.

0:53 But, you know, we're fans of Survivor. We've been around the block for a long time. We've seen the ups and downs. And can you truly, at this stage of the show, 51 Seasons and Andre, call yourself a true Survivor fan if you can't withstand or, you know, go through a couple of rough patches here and there? Like, I feel like we've been around the block. Yeah, you need to have bad times for you to appreciate the good times. And I think the reason why we really liked the first three episodes was because it wasn't episode four. Because we've been having this stuff for the last five years, six years. So, when you actually got something different, we could actually appreciate it. I think that's the... I mean, this season, I've been pretty... Like, it's probably been the best season since maybe David vs. Villain, probably. Yeah. Up until this episode, of course. But, you know, it makes us appreciate that. Because we haven't had that in a while.

1:45 I would argue that Winners at War would be up there as well. But then again, Winners at War was always going to be good. Just, I mean, we never thought we'd see all the winners come back to play the show again. But if you talk about a purely newbie cast, I can't think of a better start to a season than this season. And we had so much momentum going into episode four for all of it just to be, I guess, turned upside down to some degree. And this is what I think my problem with New Era was for a long time is, do we really know if any of the people who go to the end and win or play, quote-unquote, a smart game is actually playing a smart game? Or is it just luck? Is luck just becoming more and more of a thing in Survivor? Because, you know, you've got someone like Jenna who outplayed the Fab Five with her alliance and got herself into a great position in that tribe.

2:39 For all of it just to be, you know, swap-screwed here, she's definitely not the first. I know there's many people that have been swap-screwed in the history of Survivor. But these are the kind of things I don't like to see. And then you get into a tribe of five where you don't have much room to maneuver. The counter-argument to this is, Andre, should she have done more to cultivate relationships on both sides of the alliance? That is the counter-argument, like a truly great Survivor player will always know that no matter what side you're on, you should still work with the other side to a certain degree. But it was so soon after the Patt blind side, it was so raw. Patt thought she could trust Jenna. I think that probably played into these two's estimation, right? Because Patt saved Jenna in the first round for her to turn on Patt. I think you can't really trust someone. You can't blame Devin and Jelly for not trusting her either, you know, because of what she did to Patt.

3:34 So there's definitely flaws in her game. Like if we think about a strategy, I gave you a lot there. But what's your thoughts? It's a good point that if you're a good player, you should be able to maneuver and negotiate your way around whatever happens. Like Survivor at its best has variants. So variants in the cast, variants in format, variants in pretty much everything. So a good player should probably account for that variance, especially when literally Jeff is saying, you know, I've even got, I forgot what he keeps on saying, but, you know, permanent uncertainty, right? Yes. So, I mean, if you think of all the good, all-time great players, would they be all-time great players if they were swap screwed or they were in a tiny tribe, didn't have any room to maneuver, especially when there's three people in the helicopter alliance there where it's pretty unsurmountable.

4:27 You can't do, unless you've got an extra vote, you can't really do anything. And it's kind of like an under the radar type of alliance where it's not immediately obvious. They had a five-minute long conversation at the very start of the season and then there wasn't, there's no way for you to sort of, would even an all-time great, would like a Kim Spradlin or would a Tony have figured out that the helicopter alliance existed, right? Yeah. And even if they did, could they do anything about it? Well, we've seen this. Well, we've actually got a case study for this to a certain degree with Tony coming back to play Australia versus World, where it was a very small tribe and he had absolutely no room to maneuver and he couldn't do anything. Like Tony without idols or tricks in his bag, the Tony bag of tricks, like he is the best to ever play it.

5:17 But even he can get it, yeah, even he can, like he was desperate. Yeah, he brought his shoe, you know, to tribal council. But, you know, even he ran out of runway with a smaller tribe, right? Where there just wasn't anywhere for him to maneuver. He didn't have the gunpowder in the game to do it. So, I don't know, like it's a tricky thing and you bring up an interesting point with the helicopter alliance because we spoke about it. I remember in the premiere episode we said, how obvious is this? Like, you know, but for us as an audience, it's obvious. Like we see them walking away and creating it because the cameras are following them. But they are like countless groups that would have splintered away in that moment. And I'm sure they weren't daft enough to make it obvious and only stick to each other. They've probably worked the room and spoke to different pockets of people on that first day on the beach. So, you know, it was an element of, you know, then actually keeping it undercover and no one knowing about it because I thought it was obvious.

6:11 But again, that is the magic of editing on a show such as Survivor. Let's say hello to a few people here in the live. We've got Willie in the live saying, I hate that they went back to the three tribes so much for the first three episodes being good. I think, Willie, we definitely share your sentiment here on the podcast. Jay's saying the swap to three tribes would have been better if they made it a schoolyard pick. It's the open era. Like, come on now. Try something new. I'm totally in agreement. Totally in agreement with that. When they didn't get one where they had to break everybody, that would have been good. Yeah. Camilla, welcome back to the live as well, saying going back to the three tribes felt unnecessary. The two tribe dynamics were getting interesting. And that is the truth. Like, this was two very messy tribes, splintered tribes to a large degree at this stage.

7:02 Andre, like, we had this big power of the Fab Five alliance getting broken up by the underdogs. We didn't know if we were talking about this last week, if Lewis and Carter was going to swing back to the Fab Five and work with the four there. Kilby felt in control, like he just made a big move. Thien An is somebody that is rising. Like, the one thing about this episode, at least, is that we got to see a lot more Thien An. And I actually quite like how her mind works in the game. And as someone that I'm keeping an eye on. But, you know, she got into a power position. She's someone that potentially could get screwed by the fact that they went into three tribes here. There was lots of us to see in that tribe. And even in the original purple tribe, there was a lot of fractures there. Because who were they going to vote out next with Carter leaving? Like, there was so many tantalizing, sweet storylines developing here that you just look at it and you're like, what are you guys doing?

7:52 Like, production just can't help but get in their own way. It's like sitting down for a nice Italian meal and having a nice, like, a nice bolognese or lasagna and then having a nice tiramisu at the very end. You'd be like, you know what? Let's just mix them together. Let's just mix the tiramisu and the pasta together and just eat it all. It's terrible. It's like, why would you do it? It's like, you got something good. If you got a Faberge egg, you don't touch it. Just let it play out. Stop putting your fingers into everything. Stop trying to play God. Just let it play out. Because I was so excited to see what the dynamics would have happened on both tribes. Like, it was going to be a really, even the one world twist where Jeff was like, oh, we're going to do the one world twist. And he knows that all the fans want to see the one world twist.

8:43 I think ever since one world aired, people have been saying, this is the one twist that we want to see back. And I think even in our predictions that we did, like, three or four months ago, we're like, we'd love to see the one world twist come back for him to be like, no, we're not going to do that. We're just going to do what we did the last 10 seasons. We're just going to go back to an era that nobody liked. Everybody is in consensus and wide agreement that the new era of Survivor was the worst era of Survivor. And he's just like, we're going to ignore all of that. We're going to go back to it. Is there a way for Jeff at this stage to redeem himself? Like, I mean, I agree with you. He was definitely, you know, he was stirring when he was saying, oh, we'll do that one day, maybe in a future season. But it's not going to be this season. Like, you know, he knows what he's doing, Jeff.

9:36 But, you know, what do you reckon can happen at this point? Like, if we were to go back and swap back into two tribes, do you think that's a possibility? Or do you just think it's going to be through? Well, I guess if you think about it, let's think about it. Let's take ourselves out of the upset, angry fan angle here, right? Because we obviously don't like this. If we put ourselves under the production hat here, this is a large season with 21 players. They've lost, what, five players now with Rob Quitt and the four that were voted out. So it's five players. There's still a lot of players left in this game and not that many days in a 26-day game. We already know that next week two tribes will be going to tribal council. So I feel like with the 26 days and the larger cast, they kind of always had to go down this path at some stage, unless they wanted to make both tribes go to tribal council, which we've had in the past.

10:26 But you can't do that for a couple of rounds. But you can do it in three tribes. You could say, let's have two rounds of two losing tribes going, for instance. I feel like they've kind of backed themselves in the form. You can do that. There have been countless seasons where you had two tribes had to go to tribal. Like the very famous one, Heroes vs. Villains, right? Where it was Robin Candice won the immunity. And that was one of the greatest episodes of all time. Just do that. Just have it, okay, well, two tribes and then they get to compete for immunity and then like individual immunity and just go and then have one of the tribes sit in to the other tribes' tribal council. Is that not better TV than seeing like, I don't know, there's probably going to be like next episode, it's probably going to be four people and it's like going to be three helicopter lines and one Alexis on the side.

11:17 It's like, well, you know what's going to happen. It's boring. That's not, it's yeah, it's not compelling TV at all. Whereas even if he had like two tribes and it's like you see Brady sort of on the outs and then he sort of somehow able to sort of pull something over on someone else. That's like exciting TV because it's like nine people playing in that tribal council. It's just, so, I mean, think of a big picture. If I'm production, I honestly think that just by looking at everything that Jeff has been saying and doing, I get a feeling that he has a certain amount of disdain for us as fans. He's like, I'm going to do the opposite. Yeah. It's like a toxic relationship. And it feels like he's doing this on purpose as well because he had that rant on the first episode. I just feel like maybe there's going back to our theory about sort of Skydive and sort of maybe, you know, putting their fingers into things a little bit.

12:11 Maybe it's just Jeff lashing out. I think that must be what it is. I do know that next season, or at least I have had rumors the next season is going to be three tribes as well. This is why I just don't understand it. Maybe this will show production that, but I feel like production knows. They know. They know. There's absolutely no way they know. But this is the problem that you have. And I don't want to make this podcast all about the negative. I promise everyone. I know this is what people come here for. They like the fans ripping into it and having a voice for the fans out there on at least one podcast where people go hard on production for doing these things. I think there is a place for it 100%. But I don't want to live in the negativity of it because there were a couple of fun moments within the episode as well, which we will talk through as well. But, you know, just sort of finishing off on your thinking here around production knowing this is the problem when a show becomes so big that it's hard to fail.

13:06 You know, like and also because there's so many fans that just continue to show up year after year, watch the slop that they give us, you know, and we just put up with it to a certain degree. So, yes, Survivor's been on a slow decline. And for a long time, people were saying that isn't a thing. Like, yes, everybody doesn't watch it live. They watch it afterwards and things like that. But the numbers are not where it used to be. There used to be, what, 50 million people watch it in the first season. We're down to 20 million people. Then for the longest period of time, it was around the seven or eight million. And I think we're down to like 4.5, like Big Brother is catching up to Survivor. There shouldn't be any world where Big Brother becomes the premier reality TV show compared to Survivor. In my mind, like Big Brother is fun. Don't get me wrong. But it's like, I don't know, like you watch it a bit more than me, but it's like a goofy reality show. And it's fine. It's got its place. But it should not be beating a really strategic game like Survivor where I feel like there's so much more room for creativity compared to Big Brother where they're stuck in a house.

14:04 Well, the thing is, Big Brother started off more serious. Like it always was a little bit more goofy than Survivor. But I feel like over time, Big Brother has really become super goofy. I mean, it's been goofy since season eight or season 10. I think when I was in Grodin, it took over. So it 100% is production. And I just don't want Survivor. Like Survivor has really great cinematography. It has really good editing, I feel like it's still pretty good. It's got such a rich legacy, like history. It's just game designers lacking. They need to hire a game designer. They need to – I mean, they've done a lot really good this season. Like the new music has been really good. You know, the new intro music has been amazing. The first three episodes were really good. I feel like the editing has been very on point. I don't know who's going to win. I do know that the helicopter – but it's like even with the Helicopter Alliance, it's like we know that they're going to be a dominant alliance.

14:59 But the question is the winner going to come from the Helicopter Alliance? Yeah. I don't know. Or are they the big boss? Are they the big boss? Are they the final boss that the eventual winner has to overcome? Like is that the story that they're telling? So I'm quite intrigued by that. It's just that these small things along the way, it's like you don't need to – like Jenna could have been an all-time great player. Like I didn't see any evidence on the contrary, despite her being voted off. So it's kind of like, you know, she played quite well, apart from the whole like first – like we were comparing her to Kim Spradlin, I guess because of her like her story, right? But it's like what if that was Kim Spradlin and we just didn't know it? So it's just – it just breaks my heart. Yeah, a lot of what-ups with Jenna. And sad to see her go so early in the game here.

15:50 But, you know, let's talk a little bit about – you know, you mentioned here that the editing has been good. So let's go into some of the positives because I do – if I had to put myself on a scale here, like I think this season has earned some sort of credibility in the sense or some sort of loyalty in the sense that there has been three out of four good episodes. And it's kind of set it up like we're definitely going in on this specific episode and the specifics around and going to three tribes. But I'm not out on the season. I think there's lots of storylines still that will play out and there's a lot of fun things happening in the game. Like, for instance, we have Alec – is it Alec? And Kilby? Who's the guy who does all the impressions? Eric. Eric. Eric, sorry. That's where you're getting it from. Four episodes in and I still can't get it right. By the way, this is me in my real life as well. People introduce themselves to me at networking events.

16:43 Halfway through the episode, I was like, who's Dina? Like, I was like, who's Dina? It's bad. It's bad. Like, I'm so bad at it. Like, I always get in trouble. And I'm in sales. So, you know, I need to be good at remembering people's names. But I do forget them. So, in any case, Eric and Kilby, they connect and get together here in a tribe. And it's quite funny because we mentioned here that they got the balance right for us this season with not having too many nerdy players on the season together. And then it ends up with Kevin, Eric, and Kilby all on the same tribe. And I was like, they've got all three archetypes on the same tribe. And this is why – It's Cristian, not Kevin, right? Oh, it's a Cristian. Sorry. The guy was a bow tie, right? Yeah. I can't get it right. Yeah, Cristian. Sorry. Cristian is in the tribe with them as well. So, we've got, like, the three nerdy guys together. This is a good point, though.

17:33 This is a good point, though. We don't remember their names because they're interchangeable at this stage. Like, they're interchangeable with every single, like, kind of super fan nerdy archetype that we've had in the last 10 years. They're, like, they're indistinguishable. Like, we remember the first one. We remember, like, Cristian. We remember Cochran. But then it becomes, like, who was the super fan in 40 – I don't remember. I don't know. They're, like – Like, who was the guy with the – who was the guy with the turtleneck in Triple H? Oh, Ryan. Yeah. Ryan, see? Oh, I quite like Ryan, though. Yeah, Ryan was fun. But it's – again, it's a forgotten character. And that's, like, the best – that's, like, the best potential, right? It's, like, Ryan actually played a pretty good game. And then we still, like, struggle to remember what he did because we all remember the bigger characters.

18:24 100%. 100%. It's crazy. But anyway, so I do – I do like the dynamic here this episode, though. I do think it was kind of fun to see them come together and create this – kind of, like, what do they call themselves? The Lover Boys? The Lover Boys. Yeah. And you can just see, like, that Eric was, like, so in love with Kilby being there. And he finally found someone that he can connect with because he was struggling on the first tribe to make those connections to the point where, you know, Sharonda has to ask him, are you still with us? Like, what's going on here? So some interesting dynamics happening here. And I think that's the tribe that I'm probably the most keen to see go to a tribal council in the next episode. That would be an interesting one because can Kilby get him over to the dark side with him and Lewis? And Lewis was a bit of a non-entity, a sitting duck this episode.

19:17 But what was your thoughts on this tribe swap and this dynamic between the two of them? I got, like, kind of, like, Temu, Devin's Cristian vibes from them. Like, they're obviously sort of – they're going to go far, semi-far, probably going to be a little bit too obvious as a pair going forward. I'm a little bit confused on, like – look, I feel like they are making Kilby out to be a very unlikable character. Like, that just might just be the editing, but I just feel like he's sort of, like, almost like the villain of the season. I'm loving it. Eric, I can see as, like, the Andy. I think we've always compared him to Andy. I just feel like Kilby could just be, like, the guy that kind of latches on to Eric. But I think Eric is the one that's making it far, and I think that Kilby's going to be collateral damage. I do like – the only tribe that I didn't like was the tribe that went to tribal council in the sense that it was a boring tribe, right?

20:12 We kind of used dynamics. I think both tribes are actually quite interesting because it's, like, they're obviously not showing Lewis for a reason. He's probably either sick or maybe there's, like, a story reason. The other tribe I found quite interesting as well, though, because it's, like – Just before we go from this tribe back to the other tribe. So we've got in this tribe – it's Dina. It's Cristian, Kilby, Eric, Linnea, which Linnea has been sort of – I saw online people putting, like, images of her and saying, If fans really want Amanda to come back, they give us Linnea instead because there's, like, similarities to them in some of the photos or something like that. Amanda Kibble. But, like, I don't know. She hasn't – she's there, but hard to remember. She talks a lot, but she doesn't say anything. Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing of, like, substance that I'm like, oh, okay, this is interesting.

21:04 She's doing something interesting. And then there's Lewis and Sharonda. So the players in that tribe probably with the biggest storyline right now would be Eric, Kilby, Lewis, and Sharonda. Lewis definitely struggled this episode because he had some sort of food poisoning or something. Yeah, Lewis, I don't think, is relevant to the storyline of this tribe, in my opinion. I feel like he was a big character last episode. This episode, if they do go to a tribal camp – well, they probably will – he's probably just going to be, like, a non-factor. They're not going to vote him out. I don't feel like they're going to vote him out or anything. I just feel like it's going to be – do you think that him – do you think him getting sick ended up, in a weird way, playing into his favor here? Because Kilby went out and did so much work to try and get himself into a good spot with this tribe that he became obvious with Eric. And we know Lewis is a gamer and he wants to play.

21:54 Him maybe not being at his best, maybe put him in a good spot here in some sort of strange way where he's not the number one target now? Yeah. Well, conspiracy theory, he's done this before. I don't know if he did it on purpose, but he put himself out of the equation for the First Tribal Council. Maybe this is the way that he's playing. Maybe this is an innovative way to play. It's like, look, I don't want to engage with this. I'm just going to sit in the canoe, pretend to be – well, not pretend to be sick, but maybe not talk to as many people as I should. And then when they come to me, you know, with a plan, because he's probably like the swing vote at this stage, right? I don't – we don't really know much about the dynamics, right? But I just don't see that tribe being like, oh, let's just vote off Lewis. I mean, to me, that doesn't make too much sense. Sharonda is probably the best player in this tribe, yeah.

22:45 Just quickly want to say hello to Sarah and Will as well. I do see that you got into the live here a little bit later. Sarah's saying, I think Jenna, in my opinion, got swap screwed. She was doing so well and even said herself she was in a good spot and then gets put into a smaller tribe with someone who didn't like her for no real reason. And I totally agree. I totally agree with you. And I thought just on the Jenna thing, I know we're jumping back and forth and we'll come back to Sharonda as well, Andre. Just while Sarah's brought up Jenna's name here, I thought for all Survivor 101 reasons, she probably played it right in this moment by not trying to create an alliance with – who was the extra person that was in that tribe? It was Alexis. Yeah, it was the right move not to try and – because it would have gotten back to Devin and Jelly that she was playing both sides because Alexis would have probably talked to Ori.

23:36 Ori would have gone back to them and it would have backfired on it even worse. So I thought she played it correctly. I think the big issue here just was Jenna not knowing what the Ori relationship is with Jelly and Devin. And yeah, like it would have been the right move probably in most seasons. Is there anything that she could have done like – all right, the best case scenario is that – look, there's no way that they're ever going to be able to break up the Helicopter Alliance. It's just not going to happen, right? They didn't know about Helicopter Alliance either, so they were playing without that information as well. So really, the only thing that you can really do is throw Alexis under the bus. Like that's literally the only thing you can do. Yeah. Because I think – Which is what she did. She couldn't even play the shot in the dark, right? Because she played it the first episode. She played it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's like what more can you do? Then this is – I mean, you know, we've hopped on about it, but that's why this format just doesn't work because there's literally – there's literally nothing you can do.

24:31 It reminded me of – who was it? It was – it reminded me of last season with Joe and Genevieve. It's exactly the same situation where it's like Joe and Genevieve are like, well, it's one of the two of us. And like there was a situation where in Big Brother where Rick and Dee were on the block and they were like, well, it's either one of us. But it wasn't either of them. So it was kind of like at least in Big Brother there was room for them to play. In this format of Survivor, there's literally nothing you can do, which is – that's the hard thing about this episode. Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted your train of thought. You were going to talk a bit about the dynamics and Dina Tribe, Cristian, Kilby, Eric, Linnea, Lewis and Sharonda. And I think we were talking about Lewis taking himself out of the equation and you were going to say something about Sharonda at this point.

25:22 Like what were you going to say about it? I think Sharonda's playing the best game this season so far from what I can see. She has the Helicopter Alliance. She seems to be making good inroads with people. She never seems to be the target. People seem to like her. She has an idol, right? So it's kind of like she has everything going for her. And she always seems to be gay or something. Sharonda doesn't have the idol. It's Jelly who's got the idol. Oh, Jelly has the idol. No one knows about the idol that Jelly has. And very interesting, even though Jelly and Devin are very close to each other, Jelly still hasn't told Devin about the idol. Patt was the only one who knew about it. She's now out of the game. And I think Jelly is playing a good game as well. Like I will put Jelly up there as someone that's playing a very solid game so far. I know you don't like Devin, but Devin also, even though he's been on the wrong side of the vote for most of the season, somehow I still feel positive about him.

26:18 It's probably just because the Helicopter Alliance as a whole is the biggest alliance in the game and has the most sort of plot armor around it. Like if you think about the story that they're telling, that you feel like this alliance is going to go deep. I do agree with you, though, that we still need to determine if this alliance is going to be the alliance of the season that wins out. Or is this the coach and Colby and whoever was playing last season in the Honor Alliance? Is it that alliance that's forming? Joe, is it that alliance that potentially is just going to be the alliance that someone will have to get over? Because there are a couple of players outside of that alliance that are making some waves. But yeah, they all seem to be attached to the Helicopter Alliance. I feel like that is the nexus of whatever is going to happen this season is going to be around the Helicopter Alliance. I feel like Devin's an anchor to that alliance.

27:09 Maybe more on a story level than a game level. Maybe on a game level, too. But it feels like that is, to me, Devin seems like a villain. Like, for me, he's being portrayed as a villain. I understand there are people that are Devin fans. I'm not one of those. But it just seems like, you know, the smirk, you know, they zoom in on the smirk of him sort of like grinning as he votes out Jenna and stuff. And it's just like, I love it. You keep coming for Devin this whole season. I like him as a character. He's like, he's good as a villain. But I don't think I'm rooting for him to win. Like, it's not like, oh, I really want to win. Like, Andre, I'll be the Devin fan on this podcast. I want Devin to win. Like, I love the fact that we've got a smiling assassin playing the game, doing his thing. I'm enjoying it. He's not, there's nothing that he's doing right now. Like, I will say this. There's nothing that he's doing right now that makes me think, wow, what an amazing game player is this guy.

28:02 Like, I do feel like he's just been lucky so far not to be the main target. He's fallen into a great undercover alliance. But, I don't know, like, I just don't, I feel like it's good. Survivor need characters. And I do enjoy Devin being on this season. And I want to see what happens with the whole Devin alliance outside of this with Brady. Like, is that going to be something in the future that is going to come back together? Are they going to go against each other again? There's a couple of, this is why I'm not out on this season yet, Andre. Even though production has done a lot of things in regards to the dynamics of the tribe and swapping, and they can't help but get in their own way. If we looked at this cast, I would still say after the David versus Goliath season, this could be, well, actually, we had a pretty good, even though Edge of Extinction was not the greatest season. There was a good cast as well to a certain degree there. But this probably is the strongest cast. Like, there's a lot of compelling characters playing this season.

28:55 I'm really enjoying Brady. I'm enjoying Kilby. I'm enjoying Devin. I don't know what I'm drinking or what's in the water. Jelly is bringing something. The whole Jelly and Ori dynamic this episode with Devin being the person trying to matchmake but doing it in such an awkward way. Like, it's fun storylines. And I know you watch Survivor, not Survivor, Big Brother, so you're probably over the whole Showmance thing. But I thought that's a funny storyline. Like, they're giving us a lot. Like, this cast is not a dud cast, at least, in my mind. It's really good at the casting. I think, I don't know what they're doing with the casting this year, but it's working, for sure. And it just helps that there's a little bit of extra breathing room. You know, 21 might be too many people. But I quite like it, because you can get rid of the duds early. You can really sort of fit the storylines to do it. So, yeah, everything is pretty good. Everything is pretty good, except just the game design.

29:47 And a little bit of Jeff. Like, I'm sorry to say, Jeff, but stop ranting at us. Stop doing that. But, you know, the cast is really good this year. Because it's like, I mean, there's, I guess there's a third tribe we haven't even spoken about. But, I mean, I think that the third tribe that we haven't spoken about are the, for me, they're the interesting tribe. They're the ones. Let's get into it. So, we've got Toka, the Toka Six. They've got Thien An, Brady, Carter, Kristin, Maggie, and Mike in that tribe. What makes this tribe so interesting for you? So, I think for my favourite player this season is definitely Carter. I think last episode was an all-time great. It was a historical episode for a character. This episode, we saw something very interesting for me. He had a very similar talk with Thien An as he did with Lewis last episode, where they're sort of sitting down.

30:41 And it just seems like Carter, I know everyone thinks that he's a bit of a buffoon, but I think that there's some strategic chops there, or at least some social chops there. Because it just seems like whenever he talks to somebody sort of one-on-one and he makes these, like, really good alliances, they seem really legitimate. They, like, seem super strong. Is it the Salvin Twang? It's the JT thing, yeah. It's 100% the JT thing. And who called it? Someone called it. I think it was Mike who called it. He said, got to be careful. JT had this thing as well. Yeah. And if you're making comparisons with JT, no, maybe not season three JT, but season one JT, then, like, all of a sudden it becomes very interesting. Because I can see Thien An being sort of a strategic powerhouse and Carter being a social powerhouse. Yeah. Does that remind you of a couple of people, you know?

31:32 So I think that there's precedent there. I don't know where Lewis fits in. I thought that was going to be Lewis. But it turns out, like, apart from a pretty weak first episode and a half, Thien An's starting to become into her own, the other person, obviously, Brady is the character of the season. He's the most boisterous. He's very interesting. He just can't seem to shut up as well, which is interesting. Because it's like, we were saying he's quite good socially, but then there's some episodes where it's like, just chill out a little bit, Brody. And then Kristin is very interesting, too. Yeah, Kristin is probably, you know, when you're saying that Carter is your favorite player, I want to say Kristin is my favorite player. She's up there. If I had to put, just based on skill set and most likely to win the season at the moment, Kristin is definitely somewhere in my top five at this point.

32:28 Like, I feel like she's really good at maneuvering. But Carter was on to her, though, this episode. Kristin thought she was working Carter. But I do think there's a lot of psychological things that Kristin does in regards to, like, it makes sense. Tell them where the fruit is and how they can feed themselves. And then they will relate to you helping them in the game in some way. And it's old school in a way. But she's doing it. Like, I feel like Carter is the only one who's clocking her at the moment when it comes to that. Because she voted for Carter. So he's not going to trust. Yeah, it could be a case of better the devil you know at a certain stage. But I don't know, I get Yao Man vibes from her for some reason because of the whole, like, she knows everything. She's, like, she seems to be a bit of a MacGyver in that sense. She's in the middle. She's in the classic swing vote.

33:19 Like, I don't think she's going anywhere in that tribe because you've got Thien An, Carter, and Maggie who all voted against Brady and Mike's alliance. And then you've got Kristin. So I, but then Carter doesn't trust Kristin. So where does Kristin go? Because Carter is more likely to work with Thien An and Maggie in that group. Which means that, you know, Kristin, even if she does go to Brady and Mike, that's a 3-3 split vote at that point. So it's the end of Brady. And Carter's got a hidden immunity idol as well. Yeah, that's true. Like, that's, this, the dynamics in this tribe is actually quite interesting, even for a sixth-person tribe. Because it's, like, you don't, like, and then Mike, we don't really know too much about Mike. We just see, it seems like Mike just is, he's terribly socially, but he's good to the people that he's good with, if that makes sense.

34:13 So it's, like, I never see, like, Brady, like, turning on Mike, for example. But, I don't, it just feels like Thien An, for example, just hates his guts, like, and it just sees right through him. So it's kind of, like, it does, it does seem like a sort of, like, a bit of a split here. And it's, it is strange to me, because when you look at the dynamic, I do agree with you, this is the most interesting tribe. If you just look at the tribe on paper, you'd think Carter would fit right in with Brady and Mike. Even though he's voted against them once, it just feels like they would have a lot in common. And that they would potentially be able to work in the game, and you look at it, just the makeup of the tribe. That's why I like Carter, because he's sort of, like, he's unpredictable. You don't know where he stands. Like, I would have never pictured him and Thien An, like, being as close as they are, it seems like.

35:03 That's interesting, because it's like, he's playing out of archetype, which I really like. I like that he's, I don't want to say he's innovative, because he's made a few buffer moves. But some of his moves have been actually pretty strong, pretty solid. So he's a very high variance player, I feel. If he can continue to play this buffoon game and make some buffoon moves, and it works out in his favor, and have a certain level of emotional intelligence and strategy to him, I guess, in an unorthodox way, he could be a Fabio-like winner in the season, if you think about it. Because Fabio had high emotional intelligence. Yeah, well, the other thing was, like, which season of JT is he? Because he's part of that archetype, that JT played three incredibly different games. I think he's more of, like, maybe Heroes vs. Villains type of JT, where it's somewhere in the middle. Like, he's definitely not a token change, so I don't think he's that, has a much control.

35:53 I think, I think you give Carter too much credit, personally. Like, I like Carter, don't get me wrong, but I actually, my belief, my belief, game changes, he's definitely closer to that, I would say. But, you know, like, Heroes vs. Villains JT, if he got that move right, and if his read was right, he was swinging for the fences, he could have won a second season. Like, he was playing at a very high stakes, high level strategy game that season. And yes, it blew up in his face and it made him look like an idiot, but he's not an idiot in that season. Like, I think if it worked out, and if Russell isn't who Russell was, and if he just wasn't as trusting about giving an idol away, and a tribe that he had absolutely no information on, which definitely, if you look at it, doesn't make sense, but it's easy to judge from the outside. I know what he was trying to do. It would have worked if he could have saved Russell, and he was truly on the outside, and he came in with that Heroes Alliance. JT could have run things, and he was in a very good strategic position that season.

36:47 I just don't see Carter dictating any kind of alliance the way JT did that season, or kind of being the leader of the alliance. Yet, maybe that will change, but I do like Carter. I do like him. It's kind of like what we said with Brady the other day when we spoke about the previous episode. It's hard to place Carter because, yes, he's JT-like, but he's not JT. What's Brady? Brady's a completely different archetype as well, you know? So I do like that tribe, and I do like the fact that we got a little bit more from Thien An. We got a little bit more from Maggie. The other thing about that tribe as well is Maggie's got the extra vote. So actually, Thien An, Carter, and Maggie holds all the power in that they don't need Kristin to come over. They don't need her, which is crazy. And I heard that it is a bit of an open secret. Everybody kind of knows that Maggie has the extra vote anyway, and it's like if there's any place for you to play the extra vote, it's in a tribe of six, and it's when you have to go to tribal council, right?

37:43 The more I think about it, I feel really bad for Kristin and Mike. I think they're in a bad position here. The question is, if you're in that tribe, what is the right move for Thien An, Carter, and Maggie? Is it to take one of their own and Mike, or is it to take out Kristin to try and keep numbers? But now you're going to go back to the next challenge, and you're going to notice that they've already taken first blood on the other side. They already took out Jenna from that alliance. I feel like they're going to go for Mike, if they were to go to tribal council. I would take out Cristian. Yeah, I think it's the smarter. She's a threat. I mean, well, I mean, Brody's a sitting, Brody, I keep calling him Brody. Brady is a sitting duck right now, so maybe you could take him out before, I mean, it's still so early. It's still like... You still need the strength, I feel like.

38:34 Well, okay, so after the next episode, it's going to be Final 16. So how long until the merge? It's going to be a merge at 14. So what you do is you take out Brady, and then... Brady would be the smart move, even strategically from a social aspect. He's closer to Devin. And then you have a buffer of two people that you can still take out. You can take out Cristian, you can take out Mike. So do you just throw the next couple of immunity challenges, just get rid of them? Do you like throws in the game? Like, what's your thoughts on that? I'm not a fan. Even though sometimes maybe on paper it's the right thing to do, I just don't like throws in the game at all. The thing is, it's almost like you don't need Brady that stage, if you're at a stage where you know that the merge is coming in, like, two rounds.

39:26 And then, again, this is a tribe of six. You have no room to remove it. There's zero incentive for those three to, once they have, since the majority, you don't really need to do anything else. You just sit back and you just relax, really. Unless they play the show in the dark or something. But, I mean, Brady doesn't have a... Brady does have an immunity idol, doesn't he? Does he? I don't know. I don't remember. Brady does not have an immunity idol, no. It's, yeah, it's only two idols in the game. It's Carter. Well, it brings up an interesting talking point, though, because who's the tribe that's on the new beach, right? It's the... I'm trying to remember who stayed back and went to the new beach. Anybody in the live that can remember, let us know. Which tribe ended up going to the new beach? I think it was Lewis' tribe. Definitely was Lewis' tribe, because he couldn't help build the shelter.

40:18 So it's Cristian, Kilby, Eric, Linnea, Lewis, and Sharonda. That specific beach probably has an idol. When you think about it. Is there not already... There are already... You said there were two idols. Are there not three idols? There's Jelly, Carter... And that's it. And Devin. No, Devin... Oh, Devin has an extra vote. He has an extra vote. Yeah. Extra vote. So I feel like there's another idol in the game here that potentially could be... And it works out well in the sense... And they probably did this on purpose as well, when you think about it. They definitely did this on purpose, maybe. Because... I mean, I say they do it on purpose, but I also feel like production... The one thing they do, they plan the season ahead, and they just let people go where they let them go. Even here with Rob being out of the game, making the swap uneven with 5-6-6.

41:13 They still did it in any case. So it probably had no relevance to it. But you've got Jelly on a beach that doesn't probably have an idol, and you've got Carter on a beach that probably doesn't have an idol, which it's perfect because it kind of balances it out with Devin going to a beach where there could potentially be an idol. I'm pretty sure there would be one around there somewhere. And out of all of them, I'm wondering who's the one that's more likely to go and actually find one, you know, as well. Like, who would actually go out there and hustle Lewis? Yeah. Well, it's not Lewis, right? Because he's sick. He's not running around. He's sick at the moment. Yeah. But hopefully, we'd hope by the next episode he's feeling better, right? Yeah. I mean, we would have had three idols if Lewis was able to win the idol at the very beginning. So maybe if that's the idol, well, in theory, it would be the idol. Maybe it was destined for him. Who knows? Yeah.

42:03 I do want to go over a couple of hot takes from fans here this episode. I sort of knew with the smaller tribes we're probably going to run out of some talking points because it was a pretty straightforward episode in the end. But I pulled up a couple of things of what people are saying online, and here's the six hottest takes at the moment from fans. So fans absolutely hate the twist of three tribes. I think it's no surprise for both me and you. We spoke about it at length here on the podcast. They're saying the production just ruined its own seasons or season. Fans love the return of two tribes. Moving back to three smaller tribes has attracted strong criticism online with viewers blaming the change for production to make it a prediction elimination. A highly supported Reddit community has called this the worst twist ever. So that is one of the hot takes. No surprises there.

42:54 A lot of people are believing that Jenna was robbed by the swap, or was she? I think we spoke about that quite a bit here. What's your thoughts, Andre? Jenna robbed or no? She was. I mean, she was. You made the point earlier that if she was truly a good player, possibly she could have gotten out of it by, I guess, throwing Alexis under the bus. All right. Well, let's actually talk this out, right? It's like, okay, so if it's between Alexis and Jenna, what could you possibly have do to make Alexis be the target, knowing full well that you probably, the thing is, you don't have your tribe, your old tribe members, whereas I feel like Alexis and Ori are pretty close. So I think Ori probably has some sway over Devin and Jelly to say, hey, look, let's just, let's keep her. It's fine. So could you have really done anything, especially when in your previous tribal council, you explicitly went against Devin?

43:51 Probably not. So it's like, and if I was Jenna at that time to flip a five, six vote to your favor, I mean, that was very good gameplay. And that was the only thing that she could have done to protect her people. So the fact that there was going to be like a tribe squad, and I think maybe in the back of your mind, you know, there's going to be a tribe squad, maybe, or probably, like you got to, if you're, if you're, I think you roll the dice, he's like, let me take control now, because you don't know what's going to happen. And that's kind of one of the flaws with the whole idea of permanent uncertainty. It's like, you kind of also need to know the rules of the game, or you kind of need to know the board layout for you to play the game optimally. You can only play what's in front of you. You don't want to be penalized for playing a good game and for outwitting and outsmarting.

44:44 Like the popular belief online is that Jenna played a better game than Devin for three episodes, but Devin survived because he drew the right buff. is he really playing the best game right now? That's sort of what the sentiment is out there, because the one thing I will say about Devin is that he has shown a willingness to talk to everyone and be friends with everyone. Like I found it interesting. I come back to the previous episode when they were trying to find a common enemy to vote out and they landed on Patt as that person. So many people that were not in the Fab Five were saying, absolutely, you can't take out Devin. I'm solid with Devin. And that's evidence of a good social game. You might not like the guy, you might not like his smirk, but he is playing a good social game. And that is kind of what I was pointing out earlier where Jenna, we saw evidence of this early in the season. It's probably because of what's going on in her personal life and the betrayal that she's felt in her personal life seems a bit more close to a lot of relationships and things like that.

45:41 And probably just chose her people. So I will stand on the side of absolutely. It sucks that she was swapped into that tribe, but I also think she didn't do herself any favors by not making sure she's got connections on both sides. Last episode, she pushed for Devin, right? She's like, why not Devin? They've had a bad relationship from the start. Was compromising on Patt a bad move from her? Should she have kept Patt instead? Because imagine if it was her, Patt, Alexis, and then Jelly and Auric, right? Then all of a sudden things change pretty significantly. Or should she have done Patt the same solid that Patt did for her in the first episode and gone back to Patt and said, yeah, like say to Patt, like, hey, the vote is starting to swing your way.

46:33 Just so you know, I'm solid with you guys. I'm not as close to the Fab Five as you are, but I need you to help me ingratiate myself on that side. Like, get me in there. Like, in that way, maybe that was the move. But she was trying, like, what makes it hard is I don't actually know truly who's Jenna, who was Jenna close to. Like, who was her true ride or die on that side? We didn't really get enough information. Was it at the end? Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, no. Well, obviously, the reason why we didn't get that edit was because she got better off right now. Of course. She got screwed. It doesn't matter in the end. But then again, like last season, we had Genevieve, but we kind of knew where Genevieve stood, and that made it a lot harder. So maybe they saw that and be like, look, let's just not really give her too much of a edit because, like, first episode was actually quite impressive to see her get out of it. And then episode three was very impressive as well.

47:24 But it's just like, you know, episode two, episode four, let's just kind of sweep her under the rug because it's like, you know, it's a little unfortunate that things sort of fell the way that they did. But yeah, maybe getting rid of, well, compromising on Patt was probably the move. Maybe that's like the counterpoint to her being screwed. Maybe she wasn't screwed. Maybe that was because she didn't salvage our relationship. Yeah. So let's move on to hot take number three here. So people are saying online, they're asking, is Devin a strategic villain or an arrogant player? One of the most popular opinions out there at the moment is people mocking Devin's confidence, despite him being out of the first couple of votes. Fans have also questioned his intense hostility towards Jenna and his satisfaction after her elimination. And I feel like a lot of what comes with Devin, playing devil's advocate here, taking myself out of it, is that I think people like Devin's mannerisms and who he is as a person, you know, like we all have our, some people, you know, like we have all got our quirks.

48:25 And I think his quirk is that he is just like a very smiley, happy, and it maybe comes across to some people as a bit fake or something, but I feel like it's who he is as a person. Like, I feel like he's just that kind of guy. You know, some people are just that happy all the time and they're smiling and they're enthusiastic about things. And I'm not, I'm not that low on Devin. Like, I don't know why fans are hating Devin so much, but it's good for the show that they're talking about him because again, you need relevance for the season to stand out. And I think we'll remember Devin. Has he been strategic though? Like, I think the hot take was like, oh, you know, is he strategic? I don't, I don't see that much strategy from him. Like he's been wrong most of the time and he, I'll be able to say he stumbled into the helicopter alliance. Like he's not the. I think, and it's a hot take here, but I'm going to point, I'm going to point back towards this again.

49:16 I think that strategically has definitely been outplayed and he hasn't had the control yet. Right. And the swap put him in a position of power here with Ori and Jenna. Sorry, not Jenna, Jelly. But the biggest thing that I will give him is a social game. I do think he's got a good social game. I don't think that people outside of, maybe people outside of the show that are watching the edited show, because he's talking to the camera, can see that he's not being truthful in some way. So he's targeting people. He's actually being truthful. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but it's like, I think, again, it points towards the fact that no one wanted to vote for him in the previous episode. Like he made alliances on both sides and he's also gone to the other tribe and he's made some connections in that tribe when he potentially could have mutinied, right, by visiting that tribe. And he was already painting that target on Kilby. Like if Kilby gets voted out in the position that he is, it's probably not being helped by Eric getting so close to him.

50:08 But a lot of the seeds were planted when Devin went to that beach to begin with and told Sharonda, don't trust him. Yeah. I mean, you can, with editing, you can make any person look like the devil, really. Yeah. So, you know, maybe he's actually on the, on the, my point is there, they're painting him out to be a villain. Like that's like, he is definitely getting the villain edit in my position. Can I say who he kind of reminds me a little bit of? Ricard. And the question is going to be, is he a better, is he a better Ricard than Ricard or is Ricard better? Because Ricard, when he left, dubbed himself one of the legends of the game. Remember he was like, oh, it's great to go out as a legend of the game or something like that. I remember there was something at the time that annoyed the hell out of me because I was like, you do not appoint yourself a legend in the game, sir. We, the fans, will determine who the legends are. I think Ricard's biggest fan is Ricard.

51:01 Of course. And I get that sense from Devin too. I think that Devin is Devin's biggest fan, to be honest. I think they both love themselves a lot, a little bit too much. Look, at least Ricard, for me, I think Ricard and Devin play a very different game. Ricard is clearly very villainous and strategic. He was strategic, yeah. Whereas I don't think that he's like, for me, Devin is very villainous, but more social, more on the social side of things where I don't think we've ever seen a real good combination of being super social, but also villainous at the same time. Like, I can't think of anybody like that. Maybe it's somebody who's like, yeah, no, I can't think of anybody really. I think the only person I can think of is, that comes to mind immediately for Australian survivors, David Gennard.

51:52 Yeah, we made, we made, I think we made the comparison, David Gennard, with a couple of people this season now. I know, I mean. Yeah, well, with David, yeah, no, that's a really good point, because it's sort of like, you did see, like, shots of him, like, sort of, like, smiling, giggling, but the second season, not so much. It wasn't the season that he won. In the season that he won, you could see that he was, like, playing it off with the cameras, but with everybody, he was, like, very stoic. Like, super stoic. But I just don't get that sense from Devin. Yeah. Especially the way that he, sort of, he treated Jenna. I feel like the way that he treated Jenna was a little bit, it was a little much, I feel. I'm going to put you on the spot here, Andre. I'm going to put you on the spot, because Kamala brought it up. I kind of mentioned this previously. You didn't really bite on this. Jelly and Ori getting reunited. Best part of the swap. Do you agree or disagree? Ori, do you ship this showmance, the Jelly and Ori showmance?

52:46 I don't ship any showmance, I'm sorry to say. Like, I didn't even care for Robin Abba, frankly. I don't care about any showmances. It's not my, it's not my bad. So were you watching it? Yeah. I liked it. I liked it. I thought it was funny. I just love to play, I love to play between them. It was like, how would you approach me, and Ori trying to play it cool, and, you know. It was Devin that was kind of like, now kiss, now kiss. Devin made it even better. Like, Devin making it awkward made it better for me. He said, I don't know. Like, I just like Devin. I think he brings a bit of entertainment to the show, you know. Bravo to the editing team, because I generally thought Jenna was winning the battle versus Devin, and was my winner pick, Sarah says. I thought it was too early. Like, I don't know. Like, I just, the editing that really shocked me last season was the one where Aubrey ended up winning out.

53:41 I thought she was going to lose, to be honest. That was a very, like, I just didn't think that it went. This is only like four episodes in, three episodes prior to this, and I knew that there was beef between Jenna and Devin, but I didn't realize that it was that big. Like, I don't know. Like, there's so much going on this season. So many storylines. Yeah, it might have been an interesting trick, I feel like. Because it's like, then again, like, in the very first episode, like, Devin seemed pretty apologetic when he first did that. Like, look, if I'm wrong, you know, I apologize, but there's something about Jenna that I just don't trust. And so it made it like a first impression thing, where it's, the problem is that he just kept on, like, feeding into that. There was no, there didn't seem to be any, like, remorse after that. And apparently, from behind the scenes, and I know it's not canon, but apparently they had a lot of heart-to-hearts about that.

54:32 Like, she was telling him a lot about the divorce and all that. So I just found it interesting that they didn't show any of that. So it's like, I just get the sense that we're being portrayed a villain, but in reality, he probably isn't the villain that we're sort of seeing on camera. Because, like I said, you can splice in whatever you want and make anybody look like an arsehole. Yeah. 100%. Well, you can make an arsehole look like a really good person as well. So it can go both ways. It can go both ways on these shows. The next I'll take here from the fans is that Alexis had a ridiculous strategy with her shoe negotiation this episode. I completely forgot about this one, Andre. Is it okay to ask for someone's shoes to try and build trust in Survivor? Maybe she thought it was a Tony immunity idol, the shoe idol. The shoe idol. It is interesting, though, right? Like, I've never seen it done before, but it's almost like what you do is you get collapsed.

55:27 Because we've seen this in the past, I feel like, with jewelry or with things that are emotional, but not necessarily utilitarian things. And I think, like, we've also seen, like, Russell burn stuff rather than sort of take things. So it's kind of like we've sort of seen similar types of things here where it's like, and I think there was a running theme about the jacket in Dirt Dave versus Goliath, where it's like, you know, it's like, hey, I want your jacket just to prove that you're going to vote me out. And then there was another one. It was last season, right? It was with, was it last season? I feel like it was with Cristian. And then who was it? Somebody asked Cristian for his shot in the dark. And he's like, yeah. So it's kind of like, we see this happening a little bit more, but we've never seen it for utilitarian stuff that I can think of, really. Yeah. So that's a very villainous thing as well. Yeah, because the thing is, if you give your shoes away, I understand the logic behind it.

56:20 You don't want somebody to get voted out with your shoes because you kind of need your shoes to run the challenges. You need your shoes to be able to walk around on the beach. Like, you could be stepping on something sharp. Like, I just don't think, like, shoes are so vital in a survival situation. I think I saw Jenna use, like, wear Crocs. Was it the Crocs that she was, or does she have two pairs of shoes? Because I feel like if you have Crocs and you've got, like, sneakers, I feel like you could probably run the game in just Crocs. Just give the Crocs away. You probably should have never had them in the first place, to be honest. What is Crocs going to do if you're out on an island in Fiji? I feel like Crocs are probably more utilitarian than having, like, sneakers that are always wet, right? Like, I feel like that's actually quite, like, you see people walking around, like, saddles and stuff. And I think that makes a lot of sense if you're, you can't run challenges on them, though. But, you know, around the cab, that's kind of like a useful thing. Yeah, for sure.

57:10 For sure. Let's see what other takes came up here. Ori may be playing a much more interesting game than people realize. Ori's relationship with Jelly and his apparent protection of Devin created a question about where his true loyalties lie. A lot of recappers online question why Alexis couldn't persuade him to target Devin. Interesting, yeah, because that could have been the other angle, right? Is Alexis, should alarm bells have gone off for Alexis? I don't even know. The problem, again, it comes down to the fact that there is three players in that helicopter alliance. Even if Alexis picks up on Ori potentially playing closely with Devin and the rest of the team there, what can she do? Jenna has only one vote. Jenna didn't want to work with her. So, again, Alexis in a lot of ways, like we said already, if they go back to Tribal Council next week, which is highly likely in these three tribes, where they now have a four-person tribe going up against two six-person tribes, it's highly likely we see these steamrolls happening in these kind of seasons all the time, that Alexis is going to be collateral damage, and it will be the same as the whole Jenna situation, where we look at it and say, what could she have really done?

58:11 Yeah, with the helicopter alliance, they're not going to, it's not going to be obvious, I feel, because it's like they did, they had a very similar alliance in Big Brother, and for 90 days, nobody knew that this alliance existed, because it was an implicit thing. The helicopter alliance implicitly trusts each other. Like, every single member of the helicopter alliance, we've seen confessionals saying, I'm very close to this person, but these people that I met for five minutes at the helicopter, they're my true alliance. I don't think we've ever seen anything like that in Survivor yet. Like, I think this is literally unprecedented. Like, this is an implicit alliance, which is probably the strongest alliance you could possibly have, is somebody that you implicitly trust, apart from, like, all-star season. Because I think all-star seasons are very similar to that in a certain degree, where you'd have an all-star cast, and they kind of, like, know each other outside the game, but inside the game, they haven't even, like, spoken to each other.

59:08 I think it's very similar to that, where it's, like, Ori knows that Jelly is going to bat, well, even Devin's going to bat to him. Like, he doesn't need to talk to them at all. He can spend 100% of his time with Alexis. Jenna can spend 100% of his time with, well, maybe not with Devin, but, you know, maybe with Jelly. And they would have no clue that those three are 100% working with each other. So, yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's by far the most powerful thing in the game. Very powerful. The worst thing that can happen is for them to expose that to anybody else. They need to separate as much as they possibly can, like, try to never talk on the island, because they can run the game. Can you imagine how strong this alliance would have been if they still had Alia in the game, and she wasn't the first one voted out of the season? Like, they could have steamrolled in a good way this season.

1:00:01 And it's interesting how quickly these players found each other, and they just had that instant connection to the point where they were in different tribes, didn't speak to each other, but they could come back together, and it was like they talked yesterday, you know? And it was such a quick, hey, I got you, I got you kind of moment on the beach. And they just seemed to work. Because we've seen a lot of the times alliances come together that quickly in the game where people try and make alliances on day one. And you connect with the wrong people. You connect with people who fundamentally want to play the game in a different way that you want to play the game and how you see it, and it ended up being a disaster. And it didn't happen in this case. So it's interesting. Like, if the Helicopter Alliance do end up winning this season, we will go back and probably study this season and just say, like, how did this happen? Like, we will dissect everything about the Helicopter Alliance. And it could go down in folklore as one of the best alliances ever, just because of how quickly it got together and how solid it was from the beginning. Yeah, and has there ever been an alliance that had been named that quickly as well?

1:00:55 Like, so early in the season? Like, literally, it was within 10 minutes of the start of the season. It felt like they, you brought up a good point. It felt like they knew each other before the game. And that's how quickly that connection happened, you know? Yeah. And, I mean, there was a lot of, like, discussion on how the cookout sort of formed and sort of how the players viewed the cookout in Big Brother. It's quite interesting to go back and sort of see how they were sort of talking about it. Because it's the way that it's very, like, there's very shades of that there. Yeah, I definitely get it to a degree. But even that is not enough to hold people together. We've seen it in seasons in Survivor where just because you come from a similar background doesn't mean that you're going to be working closely together and you're going to have each other's back until the end of the game. It's happened in many seasons. Are we being tricked by editing? Is editing just showing us that sort of through line because they just so happen to make it to the end or they just so happen, but it's like, oh, we can pick and choose, splice it in.

1:01:54 Because you can't do that in Big Brother, right? In Big Brother, you see it from the very beginning and nobody knew what was going to happen, so they just edit as it goes along. With Survivor, it's a little bit different because they can craft a story. That's why I'm a little bit more bullish on the Helicopter Alliance because I actually truly don't think that it's the editing. I actually, because I've seen it happen before in Big Brother, I can see it happening again in Survivor. Like, it seems like a strong implicit alliance. I do agree with you. The last hot take there that people were talking about online was just around the Loverboy Alliance and how entertaining they're going to be moving forward with Eric and Kilby in the game. And I'm in agreement. I'm liking the Eric-Kilby alliance. I don't know if it's long for this game. I think that it's something that could be snuffed out very quickly in the season. So I don't know if there's anything else that you wanted to bring up, Andre, anything you feel like we didn't talk about.

1:02:44 I think we did well to get to an hour in an episode that was actually pretty straightforward. It was a boring episode, sorry to say. Like, you know, I could talk about it for an hour, but there's nothing more to say, to be honest. Let's just hope the next episode is going to be better. Yeah, I am thinking that one of the tribal councils would be straightforward probably in that I'm putting it out there. I think Alexis is not long for this game, probably someone that is going to get voted out. I think the other two tribes might be interesting. Both tribes might be interesting. We might see some interesting gameplay here. But again, the problem is because it's not these big tribes. It's very hard to sway people in a 3-3-2, you know, 3-3, 4-2 situation. I don't know. Do the numbers. It just doesn't feel like there's that many options. Do we think we're going to have three more episodes of three tribes?

1:03:36 Because it's like, you get to answer by the final 16, and then we've got two more episodes of three. My call is that we go two rounds of two tribes going to tribal. So we lose four players in the next two episodes. That's what I would imagine. And then we go into like a potential merge situation at that point. And then rather not speed the game up to the same degree that we did. Like if that is what we need to sacrifice at this stage in the game, Andre, to have a great post-merge sort of part of the game, then I'm okay with it. I'll take it. It's not ideal, but we can put up with it. I do think Survivor needs to go back to the drawing board. They need to revisit the longer days. I know people have asked me, they've DMed me privately, put comments on some of our previous episodes saying, what do you think about the shorter version of the game? I think both me and Andre will always be purists.

1:04:27 We would always want the 39 Days to come back. We would always want to, yeah. I got one of my mates into Survivor a few years ago. He's been watching all the greats, you know. And I've shown him a few of the new era seasons as well. I said, mate, you need to get into season 51. I think you're going to like it. Like the first three episodes have been fantastic. And the first thing he said to me, it's like, oh, have they gone back to 39 Days? I'm like, no. He's like, well, I'm not interested. It's like, well, I mean, and he's a casual. Like he doesn't watch it live. He doesn't watch, he just, he's gone back and watched it on Netflix with his family. So it's, you know, people, like, I feel like casuals know about this. And like, even fans don't like it. It's like, just, I know it's a little bit, like why do you have to give people like $2 million instead of $1 million? Just spend that $1 million to add a few more days to production. You know, maybe give the $1 million to production to pay them a little bit more so they can stay.

1:05:19 I personally, I just believe personally that, and this is my take, and I really don't like being negative about Jeff all the time, but I just think he's lazy. I just think he's lazy. I don't think he wants to do the 39 Days. I think there's additional logistics involved in keeping a crew together for that long. He needs to be out on the island for longer, away from his family and things like that. Like, I just think if you're going to have paid, Andre, if you can get paid the same amount of money that you would get paid for a 39 Seasons to do it in 26 days, why wouldn't you do it, right? I probably wouldn't. I would be a purist. Like, if I was the host, I would care about the show that I'm hosting, but Jeff is just to that point where he believes that Survivor is too large to fail. I think that is where it is. How old is he? Like, 65 now? Like, he's not young. He's not a spring chicken anymore. Americans that watch this show, and I'm not saying all Americans because I know we've got great American listeners, they're going to hate us for saying this because I do still believe there's a lot of people in America that loves Jeff, and they think that if Jeff leaves, the show will die.

1:06:19 I love Jeff too. But it's just, it's bordering on the arrogance. We just loved the Jeff from, like, 20 years ago. We loved the Jeff from 20 years ago. He feels like he can do anything. That, oh, I'm lazy. I can be lazy. It's like, if you and I are lazy in our jobs, we're not going to have a job anymore, right? We're not going to, like... And that's what I can't stand. It's just the, it's just like, I don't know. There's something that changed in Jeff. But it's like, it's like when you, when you, when you see somebody, they get so many promotions and then they become lazy. That's basically what Jeff has become. Yeah. Mary Duda here says, Jeff, great host, horrible executive producer. Says, lead Jonathan host. We've spoken about it many times. I don't want to sound like a broken record here on the podcast here on the Notified Take, but we've said many times that someone like Jonathan could be great for Thresh Air to go in there and host, the problem is...

1:07:11 Which Jonathan? Jeff will always get... Jonathan from last season or Jonathan Lepalia? I think it's Lepalia. I'm pretty sure Mary's talking about Lepalia because she's also asking me if I watch Traders for the Australian season, which I haven't watched Traders, but I am aware of what happened in Traders. There's a lot of shows I still need to catch up on. I do want to get back into Traders at some stage. Andre, did you, have you ever watched Traders? Yeah, I watched a few seasons of Traders. Look, I like it as a TV show, but I hate it as a game. I think it's a terrible game design. Yeah. I agree. It's too excited. Exactly. Just kind of... I mean, if I'm going to spend my time, I think I'd probably rather get into the challenge or something like that after what you've been saying about it. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Like, at some point, we might talk about the challenge in a different... Like, it'll be good for you to go and watch the USA Challenge or something and we do, like, a season recap or review and get your thoughts on it or something if we ever get time, you know.

1:08:06 Yeah. But Joe Mangielli's been in the news as well, hasn't he? Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I think that's pretty much it for today. We've gone over everything. I feel like we did pretty well to talk about the episode as long as we did. I'm hoping for better days when the next episode comes out. If you're new to the channel, please subscribe if you like it. Yeah, put a like on here. Leave a comment below. What did you like of the episode? What don't you like? And, yeah, like, any of your thoughts. If you feel like we're on the right track with our comments and criticism of the show, let us know. If you feel like we're not, let us know as well. I'm always curious to know what other people are thinking out there. But for now, thank you, everybody, for joining in the live and we'll catch you guys next time. Gravy Tortures, head back to camp. Bye.