Survivor Island of the Idols Review

0:00 And we are back with the day 39 of Survivor 46 and 46 Tommy just won Survivor Island of the idols and which it'll be the last Bad season that I have to watch before I'm done with all of this so that's exciting but we are going to try to you know try to keep things as positive as possible when talking about the season because I do think that there are a lot of fun things that happen this season so we join once again by German and for the first time this time around we have Josh from future past Survivor I'll start with you Josh when Island the idols first came out and as you went through the season got to the end just the first time watching it how were you feeling throughout all of it like what did it did it did you kind of drop off one certain thing start to happen or did you finish it all the way through I definitely finished it yes I kept up live but did I feel great about that absolutely not of course I yeah I there's so I have such complicated feelings around this season because

1:21 I think it's not for me personally not the worst season of Survivor I think it's bad season of Survivor but there is some redeeming qualities to it to the point where I don't have it as like the bottom of bottom is tiers of my rankings but you know the experience of watching it live was horrifying as it was for you know all reasonable people watching Survivor yeah oh and so I want to piggy back off of that I saw your poll that you put out on Twitter earlier about you know asking people how people felt about it who ended up winning that which what ended up winning that poll yeah I was just trying to pull that up here so I the poll was I figure most people have this as their bottom season or close to it so I know when RH did their vote for it was 40 out of 40 yeah it was the last of all the seasons ranked at the time of season 40 so yeah it was the bottom and so I wanted I was curious how people felt so I put I give people four options is it the worst season of all time is it the second Worst season of all time is it the third Worst season of all time or is it the fourth Worst season or no sorry or is it not a bottom three season for you that was the four options so German I'll ask you how many people do you think have it in the bottom three percent I would say at least 40%

2:42 Have it in the botom three so it is whopping 76% have it in the bottom three so it is it is very much disliked and so the breakdown from there 53% have it as the bottom two so more than half of I mean there's only got 65 votes in last VR so it's not you know not pulling the entire I mean I feel like that's still a decent sample size of Survivor fans yeah so then and then 33 so one-third of all people pulled said this is their worst season so I would not fall into that camp I wouldn't even put it in my bottom three I think just I'll wrap it up here but Thailand something like that there is almost zero nothing redeeming about it for me yeah that is my season this season has Janet Elaine you know some good moments in the midst of some horrifying stuff that happens at the merge but like I just think that like there's enough where actually have some emotional positive reaction to it to the point where it's not just all a watch for me okay and so Gman going off of that what made you want to cover this season because you chose you chose this what made you want to do this season this time around it's a very like

4:02 Niche and stupid reason when it comes to winner rankings me and my friend Josh have been debating a lot and I have put Tommy extremely high on my winner rankings for a long time however I've always said that I only watched islanded Idols once and I barely paid attention during the second half so like I remembered Tommy being like extremely dominant and good throughout the game but I never felt like would actually back up if Tommy was a good winner or not so one of my main reasons of rewatching this season was to see if my opinion on Tommy was correct or not you were looking for validation exactly but coming with that was watching everything horrible in the second half of the season and good [ __ ] god I would put this as my third least favorite season I believe that Thailand is the worst season of all time and I caramen as my second Worst season of all time caram moan actually I gotta put this caramon has actually come up this time around watching like it's still caramon but like it's no longer in the depths of my list and I will say that I'll say this the first time I watched this season wasn't live so I knew about everything

5:22 That had happened and in my head I was just kind of like waiting for I was like I had this eternal not Eternal dread I had Dark Cloud of like Dread hanging over me of like I don't know when it's going to happen but it's going to happen and the first time I watched the season I was so checked out from the beginning knew it was going to happen and then when I you know when I dipped this for 40 and 42 and 42 I knew I knew going in let me just wash this with fresh eyes and every single time I would say that the pre merge is one of the best pre merges of the 30s like I actually cared about a lot of the stuff that was happening premar I cared about a lot of the moves that were being made during the prear I care about a lot of the characters the island of the idols twist although very silly I did enjoy watching people you know come to the realization of what the island of the idols was it came it came off as very corny and redundant at a certain point and similar to like ghost Island and things like that it started putting Targets on people's backs but there was a lot to go there was a lot to they had a lot of momentum going into the merge and we're gonna go we're GNA talk about that at some point but

6:42 Josh pre merge wise thoughts oh Josh is here now okay hold on I didn't realize he was frozen Josh Prem merge wise Prem merge wise what did you think of the season no Prem merge this season was cooking I this season was definitely on a good trajectory okay the robin Sandra thing campy stupid as hell but kind of worked I mean like I kind of work yeah Rob and Sandra are I know people like I like there's a lot of these Online survivor snobs shut up Rob and Sandra two of the most entertaining people we've ever seen play any sort of sort of reality show they proved that over and over again even most recently Sandra on the Traders Boston Rob on Deal or No Deal Island like they can still serve and even just having them pop in for a few minutes I did not think that was like I would have been horrible if the season was like somehow way more centered around them and they took up more than just a few minutes each episode but I did not mind having them out there now the one gripe I had with that is the fact that the contestants had to lie about them being out there that is a unprecedented

8:03 Thing to put on contestants which I can elaborate later but I want to stick to the answer of your question which is I thought that premerge worked really well I thought that even having a narrative structure to how you provide twists and advantages is actually really important to Survivor and something I don't think a lot of people think about I'm you know I'm a literature major I have a writing background like I think it's really important to not just feel like advantages and Idols are just like randomly found in the jungle the be beware Advantage mechanics of the new era are a little funky sometimes and sometimes they force people to wa overplay in the early part of the game and it blows up the game all stuff but like I think the idea of what survivor is trying to go for of like having this be a moment a story a journey and how you kind of like Advance your game instead of it just being a random thing that just like happens to you because you look in the right crevice of a tree like I just I like that a lot better and I adles might have done that better than any other season as far as like how they gave people these like special powers in the game and so I liked it I genuinely thought it was like a fun idea and why not just throw something at the wall like this and just have fun with it and that's what it is with the 30s and G I'm going to go to you with this the 30s are plagued depending how you look at them plagued with silly themes that can sometimes work and

9:24 Sometimes not and I obviously when they started going to Fiji you just felt like oh we have this extra Island over here let's do something with it let's put it let's have an edge of Extinction let's have a ghost Island let's have you know island of the idols and I will say that I did prefer the Twist I guess of island of the idols over ghost Island I did enjoy what went into it despite it being corny I think it's a it's what ghost Island should have been I said this in the ghost Island pod where I felt like if they had some of the players there on this island that could give them the advantage and like hell yeah I screwed up but like maybe this time you won't screw up as far as the twists of this era Gman do you feel like I of the idols is should be more appreciated or do you just feel like even this brings the season down so I think that at the start of the Season it should be incredibly praised I think that Boston Rob and Sandra put their most impressive like lesson ideas at the front of the season and as the season got on they had less and less and less ideas that made sense or even you know were worth anything at the beginning it's like can you beat Boston Rob in a fire

10:44 Fire duel have you've been paying attention to everything we've been saying and like convince your tribe to do this and there was that one in the second half with Lauren that was pretty good too but after the first four and the Lauren most of them are the most forgettable thing yeah Dean has to flip a coin yeah Dean flips a coin yes and it's like we're teaching you a lesson and we'll talk about the Jamal one later which is one of the worst moments in surviv but like they front-loaded these ideas majorly and like you see the potential of how good this idea could be because yes Boston Rob is an extraordinary you know confessional and getting his confessionals mixed in does improve this season same with Sandra and I like the box where they watch Tribal Council I actually think that was a good idea you get to see like an audience commentary on these tribals it's I like it's like having the two Muppets that critique all of the you know shows you know like they at every tribal I love it but again they had so many good ideas at the beginning and by the end it was just like flip a coin we don't we're just done [ __ ] go home who cares

12:05 Josh no I just I agree the viewing box was definitely a inspired invention by the prod producers it would have been some of the best moments of Robin Sandra is them in that booth just watching all the Norah of it all unfold in front of them like just them just laughing at some of this horrible gameplay that's happening and so you kind of you know like sometimes you know you get very fun juror reactions you know in the post merge and we kind of just got that from the beginning but instead they also could give us their commentary and also on top of that they're two of the best commentators around you know to say anything about survivors so I just think that the fact that they were just even just whispering to each other and stuff it just it was that part was so great that so fun I honestly box on every season you at the back of tribal council saying what the [ __ ] is going on i' love it to answer this question no they didn't drop it and the only reason I remember that is because the round that kishma wents goes home Rob even says all of that and they're GNA vote out kishma and that's like the only box moment that I remember post Kelly I think during the Kelly or the Jamal vote Sandra no Rob

13:25 Says because Jamal's talks about something and Sandra goes that's very well spoken that's another reason I remember that you know nothing about merge really stands out to me as like that I can remember you posted today Drew I know I'm saying I checked out again and once again we'll talk about the merge when the merge happens some of these pre- merg characters because this is this is an issue that this I say the season kind of runs into a bunch of cliches at the same time at the beginning of the season where we have an all Women's Alliance fear we have an outcasts fear we're trying to get rid of the social threats round one and romen Sandra I think when Elizabeth goes there they're like that's the problem with all these new school players they're all so compul they have low impulse control and I just felt like it was very it was weird it was weird seeing something that we really had seen much during this era of like people just being afraid of all these things at the exact same time the social threat more than anything else the fact that they want to get rid of Elaine first because she's so nice the fact that is still a thing in season 39

14:45 When there is more proof that's not going to be the case you know you can have a dawn or somebody at the end that has a sop story and won't win the game so it's weird to me that they had labeled her as that who are going character yeah absolutely yeah said remember this is the first season where we went from Lyn spilman casting to Jeff probes casting and I think that is incredibly important where even though this is a pre New Era season this is the first glimpse into New Era casting that we ever get and I think it's a big difference in terms of the people here that want to play like way too [ __ ] hard right off the bat I mean you at the Vince vote you look at the Chelsea vote you look at the Molly vote and these people it's like they've been in quarantine in Co even though this was before Co when they just got out there when they starved and we have to make a big move within five seconds of the [ __ ] game opening and it's like calm down like let's breathe let's have a social interaction there is a difference here and it's funny where Dan we'll talk about it more later is one of the only remnants of Lynn spilman cast but the rest of this cast is mostly from Jeff probes casting and it is fascinating

16:06 When you think of it that way yeah and I've talked a lot about the casts of the 30s and how as we get closer and closer to 41 a lot of the qualms that people have with 41 onwards actually start in the 30s like it starts pretty early in the 30s too but I and I do agree though that like you can tell this season you know there's a lot of people that are this go straight game mode without making the bonds and we're going to talk about that final three because that is a very large storyline at the final three Josh pre merch characters who stood out to you well first I gotta pour one out to my boy Jason who was unfairly like booted from stupid twist whatever I don't even whatever but also got a shout out to Vince Great Character great moment with the I think maybe my favorite island of the idols like visit and then subsequent mission that he has to go on so gonna I'm gonna just go ahead and Shout Out them too as a first that come to my mind okay I mean I liked Vince I think that Vince's story you know was wrapped up pretty well yeah I like little like tightly

17:26 N like tightly knit narratives like that where it's like yeah we didn't need him for the whole season or you know like but it just he came he burned bright and he left and he was and he left with an idol in his pocket you know and then we have people like Molly who is the editing of her EP her boot episode was weird that's the case with a few boots in the pre-march where it's just all of a sudden it's like nope now it's Molly and we're going to go into tribal and we're going to do that I thought that Molly was F once again she gets labeled I think she was one lab oh yeah it's basically just bar it's like I feel like y'all are just really running this into the ground at this point pretty women does not equal parvy it equals pretty woman who can play the game she's the last one to be compared to parvy right it never happens again after her I don't think it ever happens again at least not until 41 yeah we have actual parvy out there next season so you know outside of that I love the challenges pre-merge this season felt like I know that they because they're in Fiji they we get a lot of repetition with the challenges I didn't feel that way and I don't know you know why but like pre merg this time around I really enjoyed a lot of the challenges and just like I keep saying it had so

18:46 Much momentum going yes we have a Dan moment 20 minutes into the first episode where Molly is saying you know Molly and Kelly are sitting on the beach talking about it and you kind of just you just put in I compare it to like Jean rer just like all right if that's if that's the last we hear of it's still messed up but that's the last we hear of it we have we have a lot of cultural I guess moments this season two specifically pre-merge the one is the dag incident and the other being the Jamal saying you know there's all women's allines and Kelly talking about everything go goes into it I'll do both of you are going to cover one or each Josh we start with you what did you think of that the doag moment between Jack and Jamal and do you feel like it was handled like on screen how it was portrayed to us do you think it was handled well I guess personally I thought it was a beautiful moment I thought this is like just something that really only Survivor can do well like you know there's obviously on other reality TV shows there are plenty of cultural misunderstandings cross-cultural

20:07 Miscommunications and you know breakdowns but I think that I honestly I really I mean okay wait I want to I'll start with Jack I think that Jack showed himself to be a person a great character in that moment he was ignorant he made a comment Jamal educated him and he took it received the feedback and felt grateful he's giving a confessional afterwards saying like I'm so glad and I feel like this brought us closer as friends and like just for anybody who finds themselves in uncomfortable situations where they don't understand you know maybe something and put their foot in their mouth or you know feel ignorant to something and you know somebody shares that's hurtful or you know offensive or something to have that reaction it modeled it just go watch Jack and take some notes but I'm starting with Jack because really the most of the praise needs to go to Jamal and just Jamal is like I want him to teach me everything like just the way he articulates things the way that he is he's obviously so intelligent obviously so like well spoken but like he also had a lot of compassion for Jack and like it wasn't it just I thought it was so admirable of him to both take this moment to talk to you know Jack but also

21:27 To us at home and explain it so thoroughly like in such a beautifully nuanced way what exactly was going on with his own internal process and then again like I know him and Jack were like roommates or something after the season like it did like legitimately Bond them after this like they were friends you know and like I just I don't know so I love that moment and like I know like again a lot of gross stuff happens on Survivor seasons whatever and like I just thought the fact that they were able to stop down have this and use it as a moment to build more trust and connection and then to teach people at home I just thought like chef's kiss this is perfect it didn't get turned into game stuff and that can't be said about other things that we're going to get to German on the other end of that we get to the tribal right before the merge and I want to talk about that actual tribal after we talk about conation that is had where you know Kelly or Jamal says you know I'm just going to be honest there's a women's number is Advantage here blah and Kelly is like you know rightfully you know calls it out as sexist and she says Jamal I know you don't mean for it to come off this way because I know that you do that you feel this way about these types of issues do you think that was handled in the right way

22:47 Because it's so disgustingly ironic that is the episode right before everything starts to happen like we're having a me conversation the episode before an incident occurs what did you think about that tribal just from that aspect before we talk about it as a whole because there's a lot that happens that there that yeah I want to do a brief backtrack to just one other thing that I want to say was really cool with the Jamal Jack moment was that Jamal says hey I need a moment and then we Flash Forward to nighttime for the remainder of that conversation you know I honestly think that's a really important thing where you think of and I know it's you know Andrew's Crush you know Hannah where she betrays Zeke and Adam and it very different degrees but she like hey can I say I'm sorry hey can I say I'm sorry for the entire night time they're like Whoa We need a [ __ ] moment you know Jack was situation but he listened to that Jamal needed a moment and then Jamal and he gave Jamal that space came back at night and then they were able to reconnect and have that moment and I think that's such an important thing that people need to realize you know give people the time they need to process and then you can have the conversation afterwards instead of just like I feel

24:07 Really bad let's just like address my grievances immediately because I don't want to feel like I'm a bad guy let the person be upset for a while because that's important people when they're you know have grievances need to like actually breathe and let that in and then you can have that conversation afterwards if you just like want to feel like oh everything's forgiven immediately you normally won't get that forgiveness you actually crave because never person never actually got to grieve and go through those emotions so I think that was a very important thing that happened in that moment similarly I think that Jamal actually did like in this current tribal you know recognize his mistakes you know immediately he didn't immediately ask for forgiveness he you know very much did SAR things to what Jack did of course you have to do it in a quicker span of time than what Jack did but Jamal you know recognized he you know what he did wrong I think it was pretty handled well by Jeff by everybody there and I think it was a very good tribal I think it's very funny that I think Survivor aired these moments in the two episodes beforehand before they completely blew it afterwards and I think a lot of these moments

25:28 Happen in seasons in the 30s in season of the 20s that never got aired grievances you know problems with sexism racism that had conclusions but we either aired in a way to just be an antagonizing edit or not aired at all you think of Joe angam in season 38 and him using the n-word right but it was used here specifically to make survivor look good they everything wrong so yes I do think it was handled well but I think it was aired in a way to have a defense for what comes after I think that a very good point Josh want to picky back no that's you're making really good points Gman I hadn't thought about it that way I mean I haven't Revisited 39 cents it originally aired and I do think that Survivor production like obviously messed up the whole you know the whole whatever all the Kelly stuff you know and there's really not any redeeming qualities of like how that was handled but I do think yeah like I think you're making really good points that

26:48 Like this was this was shown but I also just wonder it's a little bit of what you're saying it's all these things so I don't disagree with anything you're saying but I do also think there's also a time of like culture is starting to the general populace watching Survivor is also starting to come around on these issues in a way that just they couldn't Jamal would have been oh my gosh pitchforked run out of town you know if this had happened in like the 20s imagine him trying to like you know have this conversation with somebody even if they were even if it was with somebody like Jack who was responsive and stuff which would have been less likely if it happened you know earlier in Survivor history but even if it did happen I just think that the viewers would have received it much more differently than you know obviously this is like pre George Floyd pre you know 2020 black lives matter movement and all that stuff yet I just think like in general like people were starting to like I think just the amount of people the percentage of people watching at home were probably also a little bit more primed to like receive this kind of conversation than they would have been 10 15 years ago so I love what you're saying and I think the three circles that we run in agree with a lot but I remember looking at Facebook comment sections of the Survivor Facebook moms are not g like this and

28:08 Unfortunately they were not ready to receive that information whatsoever from Jamal by the way Jamal might be my favorite character on this season I think that every single scene that he was in The Compassion that he showed the way that he was able to not only be you know a very intelligent like great character but also that good confessional response to everything he went from his Lowe's you know being overly arrogant in the Molly vote to you know immediately reconciling with people he had his you know all angles from the top to the bottom to the middle and having great confessionals on every side of it very few other characters in this season have that range Jamal is great but unfortunately as much as I think we love to compliment the Survivor audience that they were ready to accept this unfortunately a vast majority of them were still not and we're still completely ignorant and just said oh we don't want to hear this [ __ ] what the [ __ ] is he talking about yeah yes I'm not I'm not saying everybody umer audience yeah three yes you know but and German no seriously you're making really good points again I and I'm there's always going to be those people I mean and let's get political

29:28 Let's talk about this election there's 50% of the country right now pretty much disagrees fundamentally on some of these issues you know and so like season 4 yeah I'm saying it would have been like you know when you talk about like the early days of Survivor it would have been like 90% of people who would have just said that you know Jamal was crazy now it's like you know in 39 erors it's probably 50% and then nowadays maybe 35% or something I don't know I'm making these numbers up what you just said right David Bloomberg you know our YX lost person put vpia in the Hall of Shame for making comments with Shawn in season 4 about hey orig exactly back in 2003 I believe right like oh why are they talking that they need to form an alliance you know what I mean so it's been since the very start of Survivor like you said and I just want to pause Bloomberg but you're saying that you're using him as him as an example because he's had a lot of good opinions now exactly he's a very openly liberal person so like I'm just saying that like you look at a mainstream person and their commentary in 2003 and that's what I'm just saying he's done a lot of improvements and

30:48 Good things since but I'm just saying a general Survivor commentary that you can look at and still gauge back then that's what it was you're right and I and I do want to I want to touch on this question first before we move to that specific tribal and a couple of comparisons anyway question if this season had old DVD cover who Sixers in the cover I think Elaine Janet Tommy DK Nora and I don't know probably did I it I Lauren Janet Lauren Janet Elaine Tommy DK and Jamal yes you can St up there because Missy is a Forefront in the strategy up until we're gonna talk about Missy because I okay so this specific tribal why and I saw this question earlier why do yall like what do you think went into the strategy and Josh will start with you what do you think went into the strategy of Kelly giving Dean the idol instead of just playing it cuz I understand she's trying to like at Koy or whatever but why do you think she went about it this way okay I'm going to pass this to German because the details of this exact scenario

32:08 Escape me I know she gets voted out with two Idols I didn't rewatch this tribel Council in this Okay g I think the big thing you got to remember is when Dean joins the swap tribe right the thing that Dean and Kelly immediately connect about is because they have a mutual friend and they have that and that's immediately a connection when you have something that specific that you can talk about you have way more branching conversation that you can have I mean think about it I know you everyone wants the thing you jump on Survivor and you have a million conversation with every single person that you go on you immediately have everything to say but when you meet a cooworker you know for the first time and you have a branching similarity you immediately have way more to go on and Dean and Kelly had that immediately Kelly immediately is going to assume based on that Hey Dean is going to be somebody who's here with me for the long term versus a Nora who you know is Nora versus a Jack and Jamal who were against her in the first Molly vote right Dean is this new Factor who she has a personal connection with was Kelly wrong yes however I think based on their personal connection thought maybe we could take for a long-term

33:28 Routee and I understand that she was wrong but it's not the worst mistake in Survivor history it's something that you build off of yeah and honestly if we want to go to the next episode I don't even think I mean yes she gets voted out with two idols and we I know that we rightfully [ __ ] on James for happen for that happening and I understand that people are not going to try to [ __ ] on Kelly for anything that happens this season but she does go home with two Idols in her pocket and just talk this is where the air kind of gets sucked out and for me watching it today it's where I just I just I checked out I just got on my laptop and I just had it playing and I would turn around it's like yeah it's still happening the merge episode is also two parts so most of it like so much time you're dedicating so much time to what's going on and you can't you can't avoided because it's a part of every the entire merge vote is basically you know Kelly saying hey you know I kind of don't want to I don't want to Dan to be here but I also you know I have to check my personal stuff at the door and I have to get rid of Missy because Miss is a threat even though her and Missy had talked about

34:49 Everything that Missy was agreeing that had happened to her but that she actually said wasn't happening to her whatever and so Kelly still trying to make game moves and all of a sudden this thing gets switched so now Missy and Elizabeth think oh okay well if Kelly's gonna try to do this then we're gonna try to do that and they bring poor Janet into all of it and Janet is the I would say the actual victim I know that what's his nuts what is this the tool dag Aaron even tries to say oh yeah Janet is trying to make herself look like the victim it's like dude do you understand how ton deaf that is but y all talked a lot very highly about Jamal and I would say the people that vote decide to vote with Kelly that round I feel like were just because they were being empathetic about it Nora kishma Jamal and Janet were all doing it because they were it was it was almost a reason outside of the game because I have to believe that they knew that certain folks were not going to be voting that way and if we want to just briefly touch on how that episode is edited you know we have a lot of text on

36:09 The screen stuff that we haven't seen since Terry deetz's son got evacuated I believe or you know how do y'all think and we don't I don't want to touch on it too much but how do y all think they it from a from a TV aspect so I want to just address like one little thing real quick and then I'm gonna drop the mic just for a moment not talk about it too much further so this episode is titled we made it to the merge with an exclamation mark the episode where two leaves is called outraged this has no like real warning for people that came into the except for the brief flash for one second yeah oh mature audience yeah but like people go off of seven episodes of the premerge where we are you know having fun having a good time and then it's an episode titled we made it to the merge featuring two hours of torture what Jos Josh no okay is that Jack no okay no it's the way on this right I think that survivor really loved the moment where they show

37:29 Kelly talking to the producer like oh you know we can step in if you want us to that's not what needs to happen if they see that people are uncomfortable multiple people in confessionals actually uncomfortable they need to have the conversation before and then just not just including oh well we asked Kelly if she was uncomfortable yeah you were watching the footage for [ __ ] 2 they kept doing they kept flashing scenes as she's saying oh yeah this and they're like oh yeah there you go there you go and all I can think about is because of the way that I watch this roughly 15ish days ago I watched Survivor China and they there are the moments with JRE in the tent or in the camp with Amanda and Courtney and it's played pretty much for Laughs in Thailand the argument between Ted and gandia played for lasts at the All-Star the All-Star reunion it's like oh the our favorite argument it's like okay you understand what the context is right here it's so it still comes off this tonee because it's like oh we talk to him so it's fine like it's all good and they even when they

38:49 When they go to Janet and they're like hey we want to do this and Janet's like yeah because of that talk that we had earlier and they're like referencing production having the talk with them you can't escapee any of it and when Kelly gets voted out and they cut to Dan and he's like yeah you put that torch down it's like that's [ __ ] up how are y'all gonna show this they were still trying to they were still trying to make the TV episode exciting by like oh yeah they for voting confessionals they only showed Kelly and Dan's and that's it they were still trying to push this oh it's Kelly versus Dan as a TV thing it's not Kelly versus Dan other thing but address one other thing when Jamal goes home where Jeff probes goes on the attack against Dan in that Tribal Council I will never I will never give it up yeah the one line we always need to go back to is Jeff's like I'm never gonna let this go and we're like cool Jeff's speaking for the audience right guess what next episode and throughout Dan like being there until the time Dan is gone Jeff never [ __ ] talks about it again Jeff says I'm never gonna let this go audience boom I'm the [ __ ] man and I'm gonna [ __ ] you know talk about this guy until he's gone you didn't

40:10 Just let Dan keep having multiple confessionals every episode Dan many professionals before this and after this just talking about the game and how and we get to listen to multiple times where we have to hear Dan's perspective on Things We Know Dan would be a zero vote [ __ ] loser but we still have to have multiple episodes of him being treated as a narrator what are we doing what are we [ __ ] doing Josh if you can if you can muster speech I couldn't even I had to go I've I've literally through hundreds of podcasts maybe dozens at least I've kept this bottle on my back shelf it's a bottle of scotch here that I bought in Scotland [Music] and I knew there was going to be a moment on some podcast I was going to need to break it out I didn't plan this I didn't think about it but as soon as we started down this path I was like okay this is the time I'm I got to break this thing off the back of my shelf I usually hide it under this hat you I even take work calls with this thing here never had to break it out Point don't worry I'm not I'm not giving up any like sober chips or anything okay guys don't be that worried about me but I will say this is this is this is one of the lowest

41:30 Of low moments in Survivor history as a Survivor fan I always say there is no bad seasons of Survivor every season I think is still holds up as a TV show that you should watch that I would recommend to anybody with the caveat that there is some horrible [ __ ] that happens on some of these seasons and I think the thing that makes this the worst the worst part of it for me is okay they're casting people sure Dan is a [ __ ] bag like you know whatever but they can't control like you don't know people you know when you put them on a show and you don't know how they're going to control themselves or not control themselves or act or whatever you know horrible things are going to happen when you put a bunch of people together in high stress situations it's going to happen this is one of the worst things that's happened for sure but it is for me fundamentally about how production handled it all and how unprepared they were that's the word for me that like I go back to they had no plan no preparation and it showed and it's just like you talking about Thailand this something like this has happened it's not just Thailand like this definitely has happened in other circumstances along the show where people have been made to feel uncomfortable sexually physically by other people on the show you reference China like that is also an uncomfortable

42:51 Watch in hindsight now and I think the show just they had plenty of opportunity before this to be proactive to prevent this and they did not and it's a really it's a stain on the show's history it's one of the worst moments ever and I think even though again I do think I'm so glad that they took it this moment seriously and I do believe that there are measures in place now to prevent anything like this happening again I know people in the new era talk about how they're not even allowed to cuddle and like they're in Fiji they don't need to cuddle I've been to those islands I've been to the mamuka islands you do not need to cuddle to stay warm out there like Dan is not you know like whatever I but I just I think that I'm I'm on one hand glad that they took this moment seriously but also it's just like a tragedy that they took a moment like this and just like what the like what the hell like Kelly she was I genuinely feel horrible for her obviously is this the worst thing that's ever happened to somebody in the history of the world of course not so people that I've heard this case that's like oh he's just like you know he's just making her uncomfortable or just touching her what like it's not like he was like you know assaulting her in like you know a violent way or something but like it's just it's not about that the people that if you don't understand that

44:11 Being made to feel uncomfortable because of someone's sexual advances because of their physical advances even if they don't intend it to be sexual does not mean it's not sexual in Manner and I think Janet has a great confessional at the end of the season where after this and she talks about how like you know that you're when people interact like this they're playing with fire and you don't even if you don't intend for your actions to be hurtful harmful again going back to the Jamal and jack thing racist whatever it is Jamal with Kelly sexist even if you don't intend for that does not mean that effect is not being felt by the person and so I just whatever I might have drink too much whiskey and now I'm rambling yeah need to be set on this right is that in episode two Kelly went to Dan and said hey these things are making me uncomfortable it would be a different story in my opinion if Dan went Eight Episodes and didn't even know that he was doing something wrong Dan was told within the first five days of Survivor that what he was doing made somebody else uncomfortable so we can't ever use you know like oh he didn't know a mistake anything like that like

45:31 He was just bumbling around and made errors he knew from the start that this was something that was a no note but he continued doing those actions throughout and then did them to other people as well and then the other people tried to turn into a game thing they tried to turn Dan you've never made me feel uncomfortable which means that she has to be wrong because she's just sensitive or whatever it is and I want to turn this into the a game I want to because you know I don't want it just morally I don't want island of the idols to go longer than an hour because I just can't I can't let's get out of here let's get out of here but I want too much the Strategic part of the of the situation is you know now all of a sudden we've got Jamal kishma who has been on the bottom the entire time Janet and sort of Norah on the bottom you know Norah is able to get back in with the crew and Janet after you know this hiccup that they all they all try she says that she want she wants to quit because she just feels like everyone hates her because of everything but they get rid of Jamal even though he's you know he has stood up for the situation and then from there like I said

46:51 I just check out like everything that happens the season after that I'm like yeah I don't care oh I don't care family visit this is the only family visit that I just I don't care about anything that so much time to Dan during that family visit did that to Shannon Elkins or Ben browning after the things they said yeah so we get I do because I do want to actually talk about the final form because I feel like Lauren is the best player of the season I think that Lauren you know there's a lot of moments of season where I feel like is in full control of Tommy and what Tommy is doing I think that it was the right idea to get rid of her you know on everyone's account at that point Final Three G didn't here when I was watching final tribal it's so overly chaotic and I think it might just be the most entertaining thing that happens at the merge is the final tribal because it's just basically Dean and Tommy arguing with each other and Nora trying to make point but once again she just kind of runs into a group that of people that just don't respect her game I want to go back to what one of y'all brought up earlier about the social strategic part of the this new era that we are going into starting with 39 Dean straight

48:12 Up says I didn't socialize with anyone that I wasn't working with he says it during final tribal I didn't I who do you want do you want it's going to be honest and say that I'm going to do this or do you want Tommy who's like exploiting it and lying and all that and I'm like i' probably still take Tommy Dean because it is a social game and if you're not talking to if you're just icing people out because you're not going to work with them that's bad gameplay and he kept trying to flex or oh yeah I had all this jewelry and I was winning challenges and I was doing this and I was doing that and Tommy was telling me all the stuff that was going on so yeah but Tommy was hearing it from these people you weren't Tommy was here and I don't think that me I'm not that high on Tommy but socially Tommy played a great game they had to ask him who was your actual number one because a lot of people thought they were and he said it was Lauren what did yall think about this final three as a as a whole were you pulling for certain folks did you feel like if Lauren had gotten there she would have won do you feel like if Janet had got there she would have won just overall and Josh will start with you German you had a great point in the beginning of the episode beginning of the podcast

49:32 Tommy top tier winner for me as well I think that I think that he's an underrated Survivor winner he's just not as charismatic as a lot of people come across on TV but I do think that he understood the fundamentals of Survivor of it being a social game I mean we haven't talked about this but let's just be explicit like he's the only one of the 30s that doesn't win a challenge or have an idol he's the only person on his season right in the post merge that doesn't go to the island of the idols I believe that's correct if not it's like at Le the final well I know he didn't go I don't know I just know that by the end of the season you're getting towards the end and every single one of them had been to like island of the idols like nor de definitely did Lauren did Nora did Jet did yeah Nora has the best island of the Isles visit of the entire season where she has to go back and convince everyone that she needs to be the caller and she lies to everyone like oh you have to unanimously agree my role without even knowing what is and they're like what are you [ __ ] talking and then they make her the CH but Jos my favorite moments of the entire season that was a really good moments one of my favorite moments of the entire season was I want to say this is the final four with when Nora wins immunity and she has to decide to put herself

50:52 Into fire and this is why I will say that Tommy is the better player than Lauren is because at that point I think Lauren and Tommy had they were they were in sync I don't know if I could have distinguished between the two of them which is the better but he had set things up with Nora so that when this moment happened she was gonna pick him and I just the comedy of her talking to Dean and saying Dean you're on fire right now you are doing great but you are literally gonna be on fire tonight you're doing final for fir makers and like that is one of my that is one of my all-time favorite moments of Survivor honestly is her trying to weirdly like give this speech about the fire thing and like Lauren is like distraught because she knows she's probably gonna lose and all this like it's like it oh no his did his audio cut out on you yeah Josh your audio cut out nope can't hear you I'll go for a little bit then and the thing I love to jump off of that is that Tommy kept sending Nora to talk to Lauren messing her up even further while Tommy coached Dean and that was [ __ ] amazing strategy on Tommy's part Tommy completely ruined Lauren State yeah I can hear you again yeah you're good yeah no I German you're right on I don't have anything more to say oh okay all right all right I'll just have to say this I don't know if any of you guys are Lord of the Rings fans but

52:12 Like I feel like Jason was oh no cut out again it cut out cut out again I also love that Norah was crushing on Dean in the end game where Norah was calling him pretty Dean and like oh he took me on the reward is this a date but ironically you know who she dated right she dated Jamie from Guatemala did you guys know that is that a thing that people right now Jamie from Guatemala I think when it comes to the final three I think the original question here I think Dean only played the game in the last six days I think that Nora was the female coach more than Debbie wanner was I think that Tommy played an excellent social game an excellent drier game he only messed up you know in a didn't vote perfectly sense in the round that Jason went home but okay it was a four4 split vote right after a [ __ ] swap whoopy [ __ ] do Tommy played an amazing game and did hardly anything wrong I think where I'm upset with Tommy is you know where I'm upset with everybody in this season is he took advantage of the most

53:32 Gross situation in Survivor history they don't show that because you can't have the winner have a negative edit yeah but clearly he wanted Dan to stay in the end and clearly based on everything you could see Dan was in his endgame final three plans and he defended Dan as far as he could and rode somebody to the end to be a final three goat not because they were just a jake in 45 or a Romeo in 42 but because they were a disgusting human being that he could beat in the end and it's situation yeah andh as we start to wrap up with everything I'm so glad I have winners of War like I think that winners of war is a bit overrated it's good but I'm glad that I have a pallet cleanser overall thoughts the season I know everyone's been waiting for this I'm going to put it higher lower than Thailand this time around once again I kind of went into it's like okay just if you can just get this out of your head about like after the merge two episodes is this a good season and I would say I mean yeah sure it is but it's very similar to how people randomly hate 43 because gabler wins like that's the only thing only reason they

54:52 Hate 43 that is 39 is my 43 where 39 does have a very fun premerge and has a lot of fun characters that I would want to see play again but because of that moment and because it takes it sucks the air out of everything that happens past it and because he lasts for so long and because we're supposed to somehow so like Missy and all of it I am going to give island of the idols I'm G to give it a one point five and I also gave Tyler a 1.5 I'm going to put it above Thailand so out through 39 Seasons island of the idols is number 38 Josh one or two players from this season that you would want to see back for 50 I just gotta say Janet because we haven't talked about her enough here she is robbed at the end here she is the one person that sticks up for you know Kelly in the midst of Jamal too but like you know that's left at the end there and she like has the endgame in her sights and is robbed by one of the dumbest twists that they've thrown in the game ever with the idol nullifier

56:12 The idol nullifier is so stupid I hope we never see it again it is a it is a tool of Oppression from the majority to Snuff out the minority it is not what you want to see in ad in Survivor you want to see people advantages and Idols to escape the tyranny of the majority not for the majority to be able to Snuff out people who you know are gonna be able to scrap their way to the end so I just think like Janet robbed Queen robbed g. Otis absolutely would love to see her again I know she's getting kind of older now she's already but I just think that she was a champ God I love her we did not talk about her enough on this yeah Garmin so first off I would love island of the Applebees where kishma and Liz are with kishma and Liz heads so kishma is my number one and then Jamal's my number two for me I mean for 50 like if we're talking 50 and yes let's say they do actually bring people because they brought back xen for Allstars so like they the only season they really had any type of real erer to is Guatemala and there's nothing really problematic that happens That season I do feel like because enough time

57:32 Has passed I guess for me I feel like Janet would be a shoe in as America sweetheart from this season and I would honestly I'd probably put Lauren I put Lauren too because I felt like she was a force this season DK Chillin I feel like he works here but I don't need again I feel like Norah works here but we don't really need Norah 2.0 Elaine I feel like would be pretty fun to watch again and I mean I feel like even like people like kishma who I really did enjoy I feel like this I feel like we like unless you said unless we get a sitcom with her and Liz which I would watch every episode for because I'm in love with Liz I don't I really don't but we've got two minutes before we hit the hour and I'm not doing that I'm not talking about for an hour Josh what do you have going on what do you have coming up Josh kettles on Twitter follow me there you'll find out everything you need to know whatever both of you thank you so much for doing this I July 10th is the night of the last night of last day of this so I'm going to be live streaming all day both of you have an open invite if you wanted to hop on at any point

58:52 Throughout that day just to like say hey what's up but thank you both for talking about such a rough season and thank you to everyone in the comments again we've got sixish more days so I'm really looking forward to being in the end game with everyone we've got winners at War tomorrow and yeah thank you everyone again and yeah we'll see you guys on the other side