Survivor San Juan Del Sur Review

0:01 And welcome back to Survivor 46 and 46 this is day 29 day 29 and it's actually day 29 I just finished watching sanan dser after pulling an all nighter after finishing the Kagan podcast late last or around 10 o'clock last night I just decided hey we're just gonna go straight through San Juan Del sir Natalie won and this is a season that you know I say that it's gabone if gabone was blood versus water but I mean that as a compliment and so I'm joined today by Andy and Zucker both from the orc Community and I just want to we're going to start how we always start what were y'all's what was what was y'all's what were y'all's first impressions of the season when it first aired and how has it changed throughout the years and any other rewatches that you have done zacher we'll start with you so yeah when it first aired I think it was around maybe a little less than 10 years ago so I think I had watched it another time afterwards but my memory of it was it was like a decent season it wasn't you know amazing like the one that you talked about yesterday with Kagan like that's a standout season I didn't put it at the bottom of my rankings it wasn't at the top it was kind of just middle tier but on the rewatch

1:21 I was actually pleasantly surprised I found certain players that I had a kind of Soo memory of their gameplay I was like actually kind of impressed and we'll get into it a little bit later but I had a more positive outlook on the season than my memory served me so yeah I'm very excited to get more into it later Andy yeah I remember really liking sond sir when I watched it I think especially because I wasn't a huge fan of the previous blood versus water and I remember being really nervous going in for it to be another Blood I thought it was going to be like they pulled some amazing race to I mean which they literally did but I thought they just were going to pull and it was just going to be CU I felt like with blood versus water the pairs were lopsided I thought some of the it seemed like it was kind of like one p i mean obviously half them were attorneys but didn't feel like all the pairs were really all compelling TV and I felt like going into this like I was really pleasantly surprised with the casting and how a lot of the pairs seemed really balanced and it's just like a really you kind of get a little bit of everything in the season is why I think I love it so much you get some fun drama you get great characters you get good gameplay you get a great winner story and I just remember being such a Natalie truther during the season and that I and

2:42 To me a winner so make makes her breaks whether I like a season or not which I know is rudimentary but it's how I view it and so I think it's really and to your point Zucker I think it's age like fine wine I think a lot of PE I think it kind of especially with it being around in that kagay on Cambodia era gets lost a little bit and I just think the more you rewatch it the more like kind of entranced you get by it's such a fun season I feel and Andy I want to go off of what you said about the first blood versus water because you know I talked about it two days ago and I've always referred to it as my comfort season and how you know I always kept I kept saying for the most part the cast doesn't miss I feel like with this season with the exception of the Christies which is mostly this Drew like and even then Drew Christie is memorable because of his boot episode and Alec Christie is memorable because of his derp face that he gives the rest of the game I feel like yes and this is actually I'm fairly certain and someone correct me if I'm wrong this is the last time we have 16 people in a cast like it was 18 yeah because it was it was supposed to be I think 20 but then there was a of females that dropped out last in my head this was 16 and I

4:02 It might just be because it flowed so fast that I just felt like it was but even then I feel like yes like you said the pairs all had distinct personalities even the Christies you know we had Wes and we had Keith you know they you know the they're the southern wet rednecks but they're also firefighters which you know takes us to Jeremy and Val one's a cop one's a firefighter we have Jacqueline and John from Michigan I think they were from Michigan we have Nadia and Natalie who had done the Amazing Race we had Kelly Wentworth and what was his name on Twitter at one RAB covering it his name was like Farm guy 69 or something and but Dale Wentworth every couple has a personality and that is something that I will say the first blood versus water does miss out on is there's no distinct personalities with the couples and there's not it's not really a detriment to me because I do enjoy singular characters on that season but here everyone and the reason I say that it's gabone but if it was blood versus water is because it is very clear very early there are probably four people on the show on this season that have actually watched the show and

5:22 Understand what's going on and we're going to touch we're going to touch on those players as this goes out goes around but I know that sanan Del gets a lot of hate and I've never really understood that because even after my first time watching it's like oh this is it's fine every time I've watched it since then it's like this is this is good it's a it's car crash television you know you get rid of the two people that actually understand the game at the merge or two of the people that understand the game with the merge but that leads to of the Natalie win of this it just becomes a red revenge tour so we're going to start with Natalie because Natalie plays twice she could have played three times but you know game changers what are y'all's thoughts on Natalie is a game player especially not really being like in the know with Survivor and what do you think of her win as it compares to a lot of the winners that we've had so far Andy will'll start with you I think I think Natalie plays a really great game I mean she does get very lucky for lock better ter with her twin going first I think her getting to be a free agent in a season that centers so much around couples and she

6:42 Doesn't need to get targeted for that I think was a blessing in Disguise for her but I think what's so great about her game is that one the revenge tour is amazing I love a good pulled off revenge tour and she knows when to wait when to hit the gas when to pump the braak which I think is a mark of a great player but I also think she like never wavered from her own personal game plan even if things weren't going her way like I think a lot of people like if you think to the Alec boot where John wins immunity that round like she had set up this really grand plan in her head where she could get on this round and it would have it would have worked out had he not won and she still kind of made you know lemonade out of lemons like she always knew to do something to further her game and keep herself in a good position so I think that's like a really strong kind of like check mark for her I think compared to other winners I think she's pretty up there I don't think she plays like a true like it's a very like reactionary game more so than proactive which I don't think is a bad thing but I think it's like a fact of the matter is that I don't think she really I think she really kind of let people mess up and do their things for a lot of times and

8:02 Then she kind of snuck her way through but I'd say she's a pretty like definitely top half Definitely Maybe top quarter winners for me Zachary yeah I agree I my again my first impression of Natalie was from Amazing Race and you know I remember her being again a little more Brash again kind of aggressive out there which again by nature maybe The Amazing Race puts you in that position but I didn't have at the time of watching it when the season aired I wasn't too I guess think I wasn't too much thinking oh she's gonna really do too well in this game if she plays a similar game as The Amazing Race but I was again impressed with just how she was able to kind of tone down her game again react when she needed to and kind of just listen when she needed to again you know like Andy said you know I think benefited from her loved one going out right away and I think complimenting to the first bloodwater the people who kind of go the farthest their loved ones again go early and I think again you don't have that extra person that you are tied to you can kind of just play your own game so I think again she made the move when she needed to I think she you know sat back when she needed to I think again you know she got herself ingratiated with a solid Alliance and new had her eyes on the prize which was you know I'm gonna

9:22 Make this move when I have to but not make it as soon as she could you know waiting for that right time so I was impressed with just again the timing of her moves on top of the moves themselves in terms of her kind of ranking with all winners again I wouldn't put her at the very top she's not you know doesn't have the kind of dominant game that like a Kim Spradlin has but also isn't kind of one of those like what the winners like you know like a bob Crowley or you know someone like that so she definitely you know holds her own so yeah I think overall you look back on her and her game I think she's very solid winner and I think of the cast itself like you said you know a lot of this cast you could very much tell hadn't seen or watched Survivor before so to have someone who you know knows the game and was able to you know again make those moves and stand out the way she did I think is a good representative of the Season well and it's funny because Jeff right after the Jeremy vote the tribal after the Jeremy vote where I believe Wes goes home I'm fairly certain that's where Wes goes home Jeff says you guys voted out two people that were potentially going to win the game times that Jeff just straight up says oh man you voted out people that knew what was going on that's

10:42 Basically what he's saying he's like okay now I've got a bunch of J brones what's gonna happen now and I feel like when the confessional that Natalie has after the Jeremy vote where she basically says I my goal is to get rid of Jon and I need to figure out when to do it is you know Winner's edits and all that but I'm like that is the moment you know if you're looking for a moment it's like there it's that her saying my goal is to get rid of John and if I can do that then I it's clear sailing and the fact that Natalie once again she does not catch a single vote all season and if this was a regular season she I mean Reed still votes for Jacqueline but like any if John and Baylor vote with their actual conscience they probably vote for Natalie and we' get you know not a perfect winner but you know one vote from a perfect winner whatever that mean whatever perfect winner means I think that her big moves her and I'm not a big moves person everyone knows that I'm not a big moves person it's all about the social game but her big moves this season were her for getting to vote during to vote One Way during

12:03 The Alec vot or the yeah the Alec vote and she's sitting there like she plays it off very well in the actual tribal and then when they go get their torches she just sits there and smiles and I'm just like that is such a great moment and then two obviously is the idle play at final five which for my like yeah it's not all time it's not the best it's probably top five for me just because of the Showmanship that goes behind it of Jackie did you vote for who I told you to vote for and everything that goes into that and Missy thinking oh I'm going home like do you really think you were the perfect person to be here I understand that there's a bug right in front of me I understand that you know this cast for the most part doesn't get it but do you do we feel like Natalie you know kind of do you think she caught on quicker than these other players in the season as far as how to

13:23 It we don't know who was a for the most part we don't know who was a recruit and who wasn't compared to the other people that we feel were recruits do we feel like Natalie adjusted better than a lot of them either one of you can answer yeah I'll start I think absolutely I think you know for the most part you don't win the game by just sheer luck yeah there's obviously luck involved but you have to do something right whether it's again social game strategic physical some combination of that so she definitely picked on to you know H how to stand out to ultimately get the respect and the votes of the jury but not so much that they she'd be a Target like a Josh or a Jeremy were in the early merge so she did something right and you know I think again it's evidenced by her social game which was never having Jon catch on to her ultimate scheme which was to get him out to you know kind of flip-flopping within that core alliance between you know getting JN out you know at final six and then using Missy to get Baylor at of final five so you know using her relationships using her strategic play to make those moves in a way that yeah on the surface might not be the most you know elaborate move in the history of the game but again the Showmanship the you know to

14:44 Claim that move as your own unequivocally and you know have the jury see that at tribal and have no doubt about this is the move that Natalie made so yeah I think that she you know definitely caught on to the game and did so better than anyone in this particular season Andy how did she Outlast these big fans Kelly Wentworth big they tried oh Drew tries to throw a challenge because Kelly's such a big fan of the Season Jeremy and Josh are targeted because they are big of the of the show they're targeted because they're big fans of the show how is Natalie able to not only you know survive you know and last longer than them but be able to do it in a way where you know she almost plays the perfect game how is she able to beat these super fans in an era where we see it in one world where you know it's Kim and troyan and one other person oh Colton where it's very clear they've watched the show and Kim all she has to do is to say okay yeah just follow like it's very easy to navigate when you know what's going on how is she able to do to flip it and you know yes she wasn't on the rights of the numbers for the Jeremy vote

16:04 But how she able to get through this game as a non-fan on a season that has that has super fans and she still be looked at as you said top quarter top quarter winner how's she able to do that well I think I think part of it also I was thinking back to when she kind of reverts back to her amazing R self and yells at rocker John Rocker pre merge and I don't know if that was intentional or not I don't know if I'm going to give her credit for that but she definitely I think like made herself seem like less of a like Savvy player like she definitely comes across as a little bit more emotional I think she does that a little bit at the beginning and I think that maybe set herself up to not be seen as much of a like gamer per se I think I think anybody would also not look like a gamer compared to like Josh and Reed who are like the Gest Gamers of all time it seemed like but I think it was like Zucker said it was her social game I think like if you look to the West vote her telling JN to play the idol is like I mean that was like a win-win for her you know if she's right then Jon's forever in her debt if she's not and John plays it anyway then she's wasted the idol of her number one Target in the game like I think she knew that she had to really rely on being

17:24 Kind of like that calming presence especially with Missy and Baylor keeping them close she just knew the importance of having a number one outside of your blood versus water number one and I think that again I think was to her twin leaving but also I think she just knew that if she could keep people trusting her and relying on her and under and she just understood that was going to like be what went out for her in the end was having those like little sneaky side relationships that nobody really saw coming and obviously as you watch this season you can't help but compare it to the first one and there's a lot of correlation that I was picking up on this time around you know we talked a couple days ago about how the final three all of their loved ones went premerge and how they all are shown having moments of vulnerability you know you know I'm sad that this person is going and then they have a moment where it's like okay now this is me like I'm out here playing by myself and then on the other hand we have Sierra who hates the fact that her mother gets back in the game because like oh man now I have to play with her and I just want to be free and I feel like the biggest comparison for Sierra is Kelly Wentworth in the season because she and her voteout confessional she says I kind of wish I didn't play this game with my dad and it's like yeah I get that because you don't have

18:44 That moment where it's like okay dad's gone now I can focus on myself as compared to Natalie who her sister goes and she is shown to be very sad about it but she is able to pick herself up by her bootst as people say and you know play the game for herself to the point where she finds she bonds with an actual person in the game that's not a family member and when they go home that's when she actually gets pissed off to the point where she goes on a revenge tour she doesn't go on a revenge tour when Nadia is gone like it's just like okay Nadia is gone I'm sad about it let's move on when Jeremy's gone it's like all these people have to go and it has to be John that suffers my actual rat and I and I find that so fascinating in these blood and someone texted me last night and asked me you know between blood versus water fans favorites and maybe Heroes versus Villains which theme would you want back and I'm like blood versus water I would say blood versus water because you get the first blood versus water you know I feel like it was a very different Dynamic not just because there were rores but I feel like it was still a very different Dynamic than senan Del sir and if we got another Blood versus water I think I would rather have

20:05 Rures just because but I think that the game play and I feel Jeff tries his damnest to get us to be more emotionally invested in these couples than in blood blous water because he all you know he's always trying to oh yeah how does it feel ARS that you like have to do this against vus who like bullied you and stuff here I feel like he's still trying to get that same reaction out of us and I don't feel anything this time around I don't care they're family members but I feel like that blood versus water Dynamic adds the that extra element that we kind of need this season especially when it comes to Natalie as the winner touching on you know other couples you brought up rocker we can just get The Rocker thing out of the way I've brought this up during like four different episodes this point but the fact that John Rocker tried to lie and say he wasn't a former player by naming a former baseball player oh I'm John Wetland it's like you mean John Wetland that pitch for the Yankees that's weird my opinions on John Rocker this season are

21:25 Yes I'm not a John Rocker person but I do think he was kind of provoked by you know Val goes home and Jeremy gets pissed off and tells his tribe and Natalie being the forever antagonist antagonizes John and like sets him off that makes him say the stuff that he's gonna say like he was all like John Rocker is a piece of it's fine that like does set him off in a way that's like oh look you see you see did we think did you guys know who John Rocker was before this yeah I mean I grew up I'm a big Met fan so late 90s early 2000s you know I was young but I still remembered him and you know knew his whole backstory so I didn't know who he was I knew he was a hotthead all that but like you know like you said Andrew which was I think he kind of got like a little bit of the short end of the stick again because he really did all he could to save that as he told Jeremy he would not his fault that Val lied and didn't have the two Idols she said she did so he can't you know do anything about that and without that information Jeremy reacts the way he does Natalie reacts so it was just kind of a domino effect of sorts I think you know his personality

22:45 Aside I think he had like somewhat of a good footing with the game he kind of knew you know how to play the game how to kind of work his alliances he found an idol just you know again like many others just kind of help you know should have played it when he when he didn't and he paid the price but you know I think I don't think we maybe want to see him come back but I think in an alternate universe it would be interesting to see him play with a little more of an opportunity than he kind of had in this particular season Andy what did you think of rock like you didn't have to know about it but like what did you think of rocker what Jeremy I mean it's so funny to watch them edit around what Jeremy actually says right because in the preview for the episode it's like oh man he said this and racist stuff and like you know and then you actually get to the moment he was like he said a lot of racist and homosexual stuff and it's like oh man like and you can't edit around that but like and it's just a flub on Jeremy's part because we all know what he's trying to say but it was funny to see how they try to edit around that so that when it got to that point in your heads you don't hear what Jeremy's actually saying of he said a lot of racist and hom sexual stuff it's like you mean homophobic but whatever what were your thoughts on Johnny Rock as he refers to himself

24:06 Yeah from Johnny rock this season I mean all good points I do think he really did like have a mind for the game more than a lot of this cast just saying something I don't know I just think like he should have known from this is the era of like the pseudo stunt casting and he should have looked back I think in seen how it did or didn't work out for other people who didn't really reveal their kind of like true like it's going to come out eventually and like Keith clocks him like minutes into the game starting you know so like people are always going to like know his p and know where he was coming from and I don't think he did like the best job at preempting that which I think was maybe part of it but I mean it's just kind of a classic like play your Idol dude like you're getting called out publicly like you can't think that's not can potentially have ramifications especially with how like messy that PR's tribe was with their sing and utter lack of like strategic game playay at all they last season KAG on the brain tribe I think Spencer has the moment where he says this is one of the worst pre-merge tribes ever it's like you're not even in the top five and I would put the unu they were the anapu

25:26 Tribe in this one right they coyopa it was coyopa that was kept on losing okay yeah so the coyopa tribe is I would put them up there with the oolongs of the world as far as like horrible because they and obviously we find out later that's because the other tribe has been eating all their rice and they're just more nourished than everyone else going back to the recruits thing there are a couple moments in the first episode which kind of lays home the at least the Christy Brothers either Drew or Alec no it wasn't it was John it was John not rocker John loses the Flint oh yeah and he was and he says oh man people are gonna think I'm jtia and it's like no they're not like that just shows that you have watched a season already you've watched Kagan because it just happened and oh yeah they like they're going to think I'm jtia and they're going to be so upset with me that I lost the Flint it's like that's not how this works and that's the person that you're com comparing yourself to based off the fact you've only watched one season the reason I was thinking about the Christies is because I think the challenge that they try to

26:46 Throw is the exact same challenge that the and someone correct me from wrong in the actual comments on the actual video is the actual is the challenge that the brawn tribe tries to throw when they try to get out Cliff I think it was similar the only difference was at the very end it was I think they was like in Kagan they shot like a basketball like into a net this one was like a ring to hook into yeah but it up to that point right Drew is sitting there saying oh we've got to get rid of Kelly because she's a fan of the show it's like well that shows what you are and he you know he's he has all these moments that episode where he's like I'm the one in this and it's very it's very clear that he's antagonizing Jeremy specifically because Jeremy's just like you're crazy and why like why are we doing this I want to go after Keith and all of a sudden Drew gets blindsided and he his voteout confessional is like I knew the women were against me it's like well no that's not really it you kind of put yourself in this situation but sure you go you say what you're and that is that is an that is a fascinating thing with this era of Survivor the fact that you know it's recruits and it's people that know the show

28:06 And you know not only are people now being targeted for being you know physical threats or strategic threats now they're being targeted for being fans of the show I feel like I know what both of y'all's answers are and we don't have to really go in depth with it but is that is that fair or foul I think it's just like I don't know I mean I it's pretty like weak you know what I mean it's like it's hard to watch because you're watching because you're a fan like do you know what I mean it's one of those things where it's like you understand in The Meta of the current season sure like you need a reason to point a finger at somebody and it's easy to do that but it was so it's so wwp to watch I feel especially as a fan you're just kind of like oh like it just makes you it kind of makes you feel crap and if you were to like to audition you're like okay cool like you know you're just going to be like immediately targeted because it seems like you're somebody who sits on the couch and watches the thing yeah I think I think just from a like you said a fan perspective you know again like you want you envision yourself out there and you know it wouldn't be if you were in that position it wouldn't be great to you know study and plan for and prep for the game and then just you know because you have some knowledge all right now you're a Target but from just an outside fans perspective

29:27 Just watch ing the season itself I think it actually makes a season like this more interesting because it's a bit more unpredictable you know you can kind of Envision if everyone is assumed to know the game and know what the textbook right move is you can kind of anticipate what the moves will be but when someone has no basis for what should be done and they're doing things based off pure emotion or again something that just happened the last day could be as superficial as oh they didn't take me on reward I'm going to vote them out next like that's not how you should play a game but that's how often these types of Seasons operate and I think it just makes it more entertaining as it's just a pure fan perspective so it's good and bad depending on how you look at it I want to talk about Jeremy for a second because this is this is Jeremy 1.0 and Jeremy's one of my alltime favorite winners you know I love Jeremy but what I'm starting to realize and I know what's going to happen in a couple of seasons and then what's going to happen in 40 Jeremy does kind of act out in certain situations you know in if we work our way backwards I feel like at winners at War the only reason he doesn't vote for Tony one yes he's good with he's good with Natalie like you know they're close but I think he's annoyed with how Ben answers certain questions

30:47 Or well Ben asks and says certain things at that final tribal and that just I could be mistaken I feel like in second chances he has his whole moment with k like I feel like it was warranted but it also got called out during his final tribal in Cambodia of like why did you get so like C me and then here the fact that he gets so he's so gung-ho on the Natalie thing it's like and I feel like a lot of where his vote comes from is the fact that Natalie wasn't a part of his Blind Side but just also you know the fact that he has this really it's not a nasty rivalry of Josh I think it's actually a pretty fun rivalry and the Ponder Roa episodes shows that they like they got really close because Jeremy's brother's gay I believe Jeremy is a great player and I think that he established himself as that too early this season and the same with Josh but we'll just focus on Jeremy here Jeremy's a great player I feel like he established himself too early do you think there was a way at that merge that Jeremy

32:07 Could have fallen below the radar to potentially navigate himself through the game or do you think that he was always going to be a Target because at that point people knew that he was this big fan Zucker we'll start with you yeah I mean it's hard to say but just from the show that we saw I don't think there was probably much he could have done cuz his threat was a you know established as a pretty high Threat Level pre-merge so you know to kind of just downplay that and just kind of change people's perspectives it's a it's a tall you know order to fill you know again you can look at little things like maybe if he however I think if he didn't win that first you know well it was actually the second immunity but if he didn't win the first one going into a vote I think he would have been the Target anyway so you could argue if he didn't win and increase his Threat Level but like you said I think the numbers and having so many love one pairs still in the game I just think the numbers were just stacked against him either way maybe a couple things could have happened where he got a couple more rounds down into the post merge but I just don't think this season was his just the way kind of the numbers shook out Andy yeah I tend to agree I think he just I there are like little things I think but he I think just established himself so

33:28 Quickly as somebody who is able to Galvanize and able to really rally a group of people he just was playing really hard and I think I and I think that's really the theme is people that just were willing to go in game and were excited to game just got targeted for it like literally all of them Wentworth did Dale did Jeremy does Josh does Reed does you know what I mean like people got villainized for being really outward and open with gameplay so I just think that he was so I think it's in his nature to really be this like he wants to be the figurehead of a group and he wants to be the one calling the shots and I think that it works with some people who are more willing to take that back seat but this group was really not one of it and I think he just was such a delicious little Target for John like Jon wanted to be the Big Kahuna so bad yeah and Jeremy game obviously Jeremy's game adjust in a big way in Cambodia with the whole Shield strategy yeah Jeremy does have a confessional this season and it's the words that I used to describe the gabone cast and he used to describe some people on this season of their cartoon characters yeah and I do agree with that and that's why I always make that comparison to gabone of like

34:48 Yeah these are just a bunch of jamokes that don't know what's going on and they're just kind of doing they don't they don't know why they're doing but they're doing and we're getting compelling television out it because out of it because I think that if it if this season goes a different way we might have another one world type situation and obviously rewatching One World this time around I did see the appre I did have more of appreciation for it because just Kim and a bunch of jabronies it is Kim Troy xan you know I feel like Chelsea and Sabrina did really well that season here if Jeremy or Josh gain any type of real power in the game this becomes a steamroll where one of them sits at the end and everyone looks at San like I understand people look at seler as a Bad season anyway which is weird but I feel like this gets in this gets put in like the one world category for the larger fan base if one of them steamrolls their way to the end because it's once again it's just going to be a Super Fan plays with a whole bunch of people that don't know what they're doing and they win the game and everyone's say oh yeah Jeremy or Josh or Reed or whoever or Kelly winworth are the most dominant winner of all time because

36:08 They play with a bunch of regular folk and so I'm glad that Jeremy and Josh and Kelly and Reed and all these they did because it led to a more compelling storyline moving forward where we really don't know who's going to win the game I feel like the Front Runners once Jeremy and Josh leave probably Reed yeah I'll put Reed in there I feel like Keith might have the social thing going for him you know Natalie is up there but I feel like Jackie or Jacqueline or John are probably up there it's a very compelling storyline past those first two jur jurors we won't talk about what's her name oh Julie we won't talk about Julie it becomes a very compelling game from there and this is a season and a long line of Seasons at this point I would say going back to one world where the boot order at the merge for the most part are blind sides you know and I feel like people forget that with one world that there were just blindsides just going like this but from Philippines caramon blood versus water Kagan now it's just people you know out there doing what they need to do and voting out the people that they feel and it's

37:28 Not just one person running the entire thing it's people trying to do I guess blood versus water the first blood versus water I guess that's a little iffy on that most of those were blind sides but still I know we're in this new era like we're in this new era now like of 29 where this is starting to become the norm do we feel like this was a this was this was a good change to the game the fact that people now felt like hey you know it's blind sides or bust do did we like this it's not a rule change it's just kind of a culture change in the game do we feel like this was a good change for you as a as a viewer and for you know the players Andy I remember feeling exactly how you described in the very beginning of this merge where I was enjoying the season I mean the Prem merge slogged a little and I remember being like it's going to be Josh Jeremy like this has been kind of the era of like people rightfully so playing a great game stopping to the end and then Josh goes and I was like well let's sign the check to Jeremy congrats like I just couldn't see a world where he wasn't going and so to have him go not just not whenn but go next

38:48 Was like oh like we're like it's a little bit more wide open I do think with this cast it's funny because it wasn't really intentional but it did kind of the way you phrased it did make me think we kind of are really it really is a precursor to this world of like you have to be playing really hard and it really is one of the first Seasons where like Threat Level management becomes like a really tactile thing in the strateg in the strategy of it and obviously wasn't verbalized this season in any way shape or form but I do think it probably was the right time in the evolution of Survivor for like that kind of be brought in and I think that probably is a good thing and a good lesson I think for future players to take away yeah I agree kind of just bouncing off of that you kind of get you know again like the natural kind of course of the game where you know you're in the very early stage you know stage of the show again you're all just kind of learning you know how the game works and once you kind of get like Idols put in there and other advantages you know the game has to kind of evolve to kind of keep things freshh for not just the players but for the viewers so I think you know kind of having the quote unquote like you know necessity for blindsides big moves

40:08 On the surface might be maybe a big step but I think to just again inject a little different you know kind of flavor into the mix I think you have to evolve with the game you can't just steamroll the competition have a majority Alliance that just takes everyone out you have to kind of navigate at time times between both sides you know the majority and the minority you have to have a social game where you interact with everyone not just the people in your alliance so I think you know again Natalie in this case maybe didn't make on the surface big moves but made the necessary moves and the big moves of the Season to stand out from the rest so I think it's a necessity for any season any kind of game to have that be the case where you have to individualize yourself from others but obviously tting that down enough where you're not you know again like in Josh or Jeremy's case the targets as a result so you know you have to tow the line a little bit but I think in general it is necessary to have in the game in some capacity and going off that they keep referring to it as the Josh Reed Alliance and the Jeremy Alliance and that is a very big you know if your name is being attached to being the leader of an alliance you are you're basically screwed unless you were playing

41:29 Kagan basically because in that and even in that situation and I talked about this last night it's like it's crazy that these people are calling out the fact that this man is a liar and that he's being neurotic and all of that and won't do anything about it and those people I Feel Like That season had more people that understood the game as compared to here where it's like okay yeah it's the Josh and Reed versus the Jeremy thing and okay let's just get rid of them and we'll just start all over again and I feel like the people in the middle of that are John and Jacqueline a very compelling Duo on this season they're not the last yeah they're not the last Duo that remains but I feel like they are the most compelling Duo that remains because they are able to navigate through the merge basically like this they can kind of afford to go back and forth what did y'all think of the Jackie joh Jaclyn John Dynamic well I mean it just to make it easier Andy you'll have JN zacher you'll have Jacqueline but you can talk about the couples as a as a whole as well but what did we think about them because for me it was my favorite couple on the season it used to be Wes and Keith and you know whatever but I do feel like they were the most compelling

42:50 So what do we think about them yeah I'll start I think yeah General the whether by you know their own doing or not they kind of always found themselves in the middle you know between you know post Swap and post merge in between you know kind of different factions so but you know focusing on Jacqueline you know just going back to her you know initial start of the game when she was on coyopa and they kept losing she was in the minority you know did whatever she had to do to make it through the next part of the game I think once her and John linked up I think at least my initial impression was you know how I remember the season oh you know John was the one you know making the calls making the decisions Jack was kind of just there along with him which I found rewatching this season it was a lot more even kill 50-50 and I think in some respects Jacqueline had a better understanding of the game and the Dynamics and the relationships and the moves that should have been made but JN kind of had his blinders on you know of what he needed to do to not just to the game end of the game and win but just to take credit for you know certain moves you know like in case where Natalie told Jon to play his Idol and Jack kind of using the phrasing of you know

44:10 Basically Natalie this was Natalie's move more or less you know I think it was something that you know jacine Jack jacine had more I think footing in the game than Jon did and wasn't as much of a threat and yeah you know sometimes G just kind of got luck on her side but I think again in most cases you get to the end for a reason you know there are circumstances where you're drag to the end but I think in her case she did what she had to do to make the moves necessary to get to the end and you know again just comparing to Natalie of course I don't think she played as good a game but I think she played a decent enough game where in kind of the grand scheme of things I think she'd have a case to make for you know potentially winning the season Andy it's funny because I feel like Jon's all those things Jack like he's the opposite like I think even if Jon had gone into the end I cannot see a world where this cast rewards him I just see like the way he always his like lack of introspection I felt was really apparent the whole season and his inability to like not have himself be the main character syndrome I think he was helped so much by jacine there because she just was his like empathy core for him to like play the game not as like chess pieces in his

45:30 Brain I think if he's on a regular season I think he gets like Drew like I think he goes out I think he's a pre-merge Blindside like he almost basically was I think if their tribe keeps losing really early on like he was very much not meshing with that group on paper he wasn't involved in this plan to take Drew out they were seen very much as like a little strength pair so I just think JN is John and jacn together were really emblematic I think of casting at this time of getting this All-American pair who you know are real excited to go out there and do it and play and then don't actually I just feel like Jon never really had a true pulse minus like just vot pure voting blocks I think he understood where to put numbers and how to kind of like position himself where he always was in the middle but I don't think he ever really just took consideration of what other people could possibly be doing around him and so I think he played an impressive middle game I don't know it's hard to attribute how much as that is due to him it did seem like he really forged a great bond with Missy and Baylor and he knew how to keep them kind of in his back pocket I think that is says something I think maybe something jacn didn't do as successfully but I

46:50 Just can't see a world where he gets to the end and the jury kind of really I mean depends on who he's sitting against like CU I have opinions on what you're saying so I want you to finish so I can yeah but I just I just can't see a world where he sells a lot of things he does as intentional that other people would be that wouldn't disprove in that jury like even when he plays his Idol he goes H I'm so glad I played that and I'm like no you should be glad that like Natalie told you to play that like well even at Camp John's like oh but I was gonna do it anyway it's like and I think Natalie even says like no you weren't yeah no you weren't yeah so my thoughts on if John sits the end and so I know and once again I say this every episode I hate fantasy right like playing fantasy with this but let's say JN sits the end and he sits next to Jackie and Natalie I think John wins just because a few of the men this season are at least sort of being portrayed as Bros and I feel like in that situation no one's going to give Jacqueline any credit for anything which is shitty and so a lot of those votes go to Jon I feel like in that situation Natalie doesn't do

48:11 What she does and Natalie you know doesn't get credit for anything other than you know being able to survive this long by herself and all that and having those social bonds if he goes to the end with Missy and Baylor he wins unanimously probably yeah I so for me I feel like John or Keith probably win in almost every scenario that doesn't involve them sitting next to each other because I think if they sit next to each other in one other person Keith probably wins it's because he's likable I think that's where I think that's where we get a likable winner not a strategic winner we get a likeable which is fine like I like likable winners but I was I was trying to figure that out during the final six in the finale episode of like okay what is what is a situation where one of them said at the end what would happen it's like I think a man always wins this season yeah and instead we get one female jur this entire season which is crazy because you said there were 18 people is it 10 women eight men opposite it was 10 men eight women okay and I feel like the this final three and it's a final three that doesn't involve in All Women's Alliance even though that's what

49:31 Drew was so afraid of prear this had nothing to do with an all female Alliance it just kind of happened that way mainly because Natalie was doing what she was doing in the game but we get we get a final three and I won't say it's the most compelling final three I think it's a very compelling final two but Missy and Baylor and this is the Missy and Baylor segment where do you think this concept of Baylor being a brat came from because we have the moment where they basically try to throw the challenge to that Missy can go on the reward where Reed refers to Baylor as a Brad and you can see that this has kind of been stewing for a while this is not just coming out of nowhere and watching it this time around I'm looking for moments that would lead a viewer to like understand why this is happening and I couldn't pick up on anything you know I couldn't pick up on anything that was like okay why is why is there this much and I know that in the large Survivor Community people don't like Baylor and Missy either I didn't find them that hatable this season you know they were fine you know Missy I have to have a crush every season I guess Missy was my Crush by default but like I had it was some pickings but I had to pick Missy by default did we

50:51 Did we as a whole you know yall can defer on this whole did we like Missy and Baylor are they the villains I like you said there wasn't like any standout villains this season like I don't think anyone did anything heinous or evil but I think if you had to pick someone some couple yeah you maybe pick Missy and Baylor you know they're the ones that I think kind of benefited by again just kind of always having the numbers being in the majority being the last level couple so it's kind of like by default they were the ones that you were kind of ruing against I don't think they did anything particularly again like egregious to the players in the game they didn't curse people out they didn't you know just kind of like stomp on them or use them as chess pieces like I think they you know built solid connections and emotional bonds with you know certainly the people within their Alliance yeah may maybe not like the kind of the Alex and the Keith and the Wes's of the world but I don't think they were bad to them by any means so there was probably again just a lot of stuff we didn't see as is the product of just having a 42-minute episode of three days and you know I'm sure a lot of stuff at Camp was said that we didn't were we're not privy to but yeah you

52:11 Know so I think that's just kind of my take on that yeah I definitely think we're probably missing a little I would say like I think that obviously I think based on what we saw like Reed's speech at final tribal feels like it kind of comes out of nowhere I don't think there's anything gameplay wise or non-gameplay wise that least showed that from MC Miss's Behavior but obviously it was enough to Warrant Reed to not only say that but also vote for Jaclyn just so Missy doesn't get the second voice money I like just as a viewer I'm obsessed with Missy and Baylor I think they're like they bring so much like even their opening moment where Miss's like yeah I've been divorced three times bayor has been with me through all of them and I'm like so true Queen like this is like they just so different from any other like casting for me like they just from start to finish I feel like they were really kind of fun television kind of like the anti like Sierra and LA in the sense that they weren't really gamey but had still that same like rough around the edges like sou and I just I think that they're just really I don't know they were really fun to watch for me and I think that they like still like

53:31 To your point even when you said earlier like Missy thinking she's going home at five when she has her broken foot from the like make A- wish immunity challenge I think it's like also just objectively hilarious like the whole like they're so funny to me like I just I think that they filled their role like perfectly on what the show was and I think them being kind of these unexpected like people that were always constantly in the middle and somehow made all these big moves kind of accidentally despite them not really knowing how to play I think is entertainment gold and this is kind of straying off topic but still talking about them I was I was spectating an org once years ago it's probably three years ago and during the first vote out some guy gets blindsided and I'm sitting there watching you know because it's live streaming on Facebook and the kid starts talking and I'm like as he starts talking I'm like this sounds very familiar and it wasn't until I heard the phrase wicked stepmother then I realized he had said the entire Reed jury speech as his vote out like and going after one of the people that blindsided him and the first vote of an org he had re because he wasn't reading off screen he was he was he had

54:51 Rehearsed this I would assume all day because he knew he was going home instead of scrambling he rehearsed this and said it directed at one of the women in the game and I'm sitting there like that's a weird thing to pull from you know you pull the wicked stepmother speech from a watching it this time a very drunk Reed has at least had a few drinks up to this point because his eyes are like just it's very comparative to like Eric Cardona or others where it's like okay yeah this they've had oh or Alex and Fiji where it's like okay he's had a few drinks but the fact that was the speech that he went with has stuck with me for three years the fact that they use read speech and so you know obviously like you both said you know we don't see everything and I will you know and I agree with you I also feel like they wouldn't why would they put that in the season if it has nothing to do with anything and I and it goes to what y'all are saying and it's weird that we didn't get more negative content from Miss and Baylor only because of that speech because now we're sitting there as an audience like okay this is really weird that this is

56:12 Com like where this is coming from if they had even just shown us one thing that would show okay yeah they're not the most liked it would have made a little bit more sense but that's just nitpicking because I really love s I was thinking about this today four of okay I want I want one of y'all to so we have five rurys from this season right Jeremy Natalie Kelly Keith and that's it right is it yeah I think that's it yeah that and they're all on the same they're on the same starting tribe yes yeah they're all on the same starting tribe and I feel like what I guess bothers me about the perception of the Season that is just and like the casting choices and all that and it's like do you forget that we have a you know compared to a lot of other Seasons we have a lot of returnees from the season including three being on Second Chances and one of them winning one of pulling the big move of the season and one just being The Lovable goof that he was in

57:34 Keith why do we feel like this season gets as much I won't say hatred because people don't put it in the Redemption Island category but I do feel like people put it very low on their list and I've never understood why because yeah people don't know what they're doing that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad season and I like I like we've all touched on there are moments especially post Josh Jeremy where it just becomes such a great ride why do y'all feel like this season is consistently looked at as bottom tier you let's say bottom tier not hatable just bottom tier I think maybe because it's such a good not story that maybe people feel it's not as competitive as maybe my read on it is that people wish there was like more of a I don't know some people love like a real I mean I do too a real like tight final tribal where it feels like anybody could win and it did feel like anybody can win but not because everybody was playing these amazing St war games of like anybody could win because all the power players got taken out pretty early on but I don't know I just think it's i' I've never gotten the hate so it's like to me it's like s star is like my like Comfort

58:54 Rewatch and so but I think it's just like from the lack of like I don't know like just people like actively doing things even really late in the game like you don't really see ever Miss and Baylor doing anything like really active like I think that's I think maybe part of it is just the lack of active gameplay yeah I think it's just kind of like when you look at like other standout Seasons you know Seasons like kagay where the gameplay was you know always changing always evolving and or season you know like Pearl islands where you know the characters just stand out you know you have Heroes you have villains you have Dynamic interaction so I think this season just didn't have those standout character standout moments you know obviously fans like us we can kind of study and Del further and kind of analyze things from a different perspective but just from a kind of just like a casual viewers perspective there wasn't anything that I think you can kind of sink your teeth into it's also I think a product of just time you know it's been out for so long and you have more recent Seasons that people kind of keep in the Forefront of their mind so it just wasn't something that I think had those standout moments or standout characters and you know I think just you know again I don't find it a bad season by any means like I prefer this over a season

1:00:14 Where there's just more just bad people on the season you know this didn't have that so yeah it's hard to say for sure but that would be kind of my understanding is just and was kind of just like a mediocre season in many respects yeah the pre merge is a SLO too I think that is like even as someone I do adore at the premerge does minus like the Drew boot is obviously like a really great like fun episode but like coopa just is like hard you're just kind of like you can't really wrap your head around why people are making decisions they are making it's not fun to watch the L worth implode in a very wamp way and then the merge quit like just sucks like the begin it does take a little bit to really like reap the benefits of its sewing for a while too so I think it I think that's also part of it is that some people like can't get past the first half I also feel like Jeff and production kind of checked out in the season the two examples that I have and we're going to start to wrap up but two examples that I have are one in the next time on Survivor they just use the first blood versus water graphic every single time they don't even have it's just blood versus water it's like I know that Graphics the same one but two when we have a quit Jeff's is kind of like okay yeah you want to quit that's fine he doesn't try to shame her

1:01:35 Or do anything other than okay yeah let's you know that's fine I feel like I didn't want you here anyway it's almost similar to Lindsay from last season except for I and I tweeted this out yesterday it's like yeah except for Jeff probably felt like Lindsay was going to try to kill Trish if she stayed longer so yeah I'll let she quit now with Julie's just like yeah that's fine see you we don't we casted John Rocker because like you said stunt casting but like Julie you were just there because I candy I guess so final two questions that I ask every time first question we've established that we've had four people back from this season were they the right four and do you feel like there could have been other people that could have been brought back where it would have made sense not we're not talking about 50 right now just 29 [Music] to 38 I guess yeah I think for you know the three that were brought back for second chance I think you know in Jeremy in Wentworth and in Keith I think I think the most questionable one of that Bunch would be Wentworth just because her game this go round was nothing special she was Prem merg didn't really have again the chance or opportunity

1:02:55 To you know kind of be someone worthy of a second chance but again I think we'll all agree and she made the most of that opportunity so we're very happy that happened I think in Jeremy's case again had the Strategic knowledge had the you know in respect social backing to win the game as evidenced by his Second Chance season so I think he deserved that and I think in Keith's case he's just a character like you know again we can all agree not the most astute game player but think Survivor history would not be the same without having Keith nil on our screens twice and then again in Natalie's case I think obviously winners at War you only have a select group of people but I think she's a very formidable winner and did a great job in many respects on winners at War so I think all four of them deserve their opportunity and if I were to pick let's say just one person that hasn't come back from that season that I think I'd like to see I could pick a few but I'd be interested to almost see Jacqueline without having a loved one you know again I think going back to what I said earlier she really did have my impression was a much better footing in the game than I think she was given credit for so without having Jon or love one there to kind of be tied to just to have a game she could play freely

1:04:15 And also being you know that much older and that much more mature I think she'd come at the game with a different perspective and I think it would be interesting to see her a second time around and yeah I mean I feel I agree with all your all the points on who they brought back I think it's I think production is probably like okay so many people got boned because they were you know stronger players in the rest of this cast let's give them another chance with where they're not going to be targeted for that so I think Jeremy and Wentworth coming back was great it's so bizarre watching this like knowing what we know now about Wentworth like it's just really fun to see her before she just becomes this like you know get like basically like the Mount Rushmore for this era I feel like onew worth really becomes such a face for the show but I love that they brought back a pure character okay I love that Keith got another chance to like shine again and prove he can like America loved him yeah I loved him I mean he's like I wish we could have lived in a world where him and Tai could have played together I would have loved nothing more than to see them like probably like link up in the best way possible I he was amazing when he got to come back again and then of course I think natal proved her own it is apparently that Anderson curs that you must go out first in some way on a returning season in some capacity so I think

1:05:35 It was amazing for her to continue that Legacy so I think all the choices were correct I think it's like fun to watch this tier Point yeah people what people consider a lower tier season like have like these like absolute icons of this era play on it I don't really think anybody like needs to come back but I mean give me one of the chotic gays I'd love Joshua Reed to come back now that they now they're separate have a w Melle moment yeah I don't know give me that'd be really great I think like of the two maybe Reed was a little scrappier I love that he was able to slly get footing I think he could be on a fun little Chaotic season and I think at this point people would forget that he was a little chaotics I think You' do great and that obviously leads into my final question of if you had to pick one person from this season whether they've played one two or three times who would for 50 I think I'm gonna have to do onew worth it's hard like I just feel like she's just she can she kind of like does it all in a great way I think it's fun to see her be on top it's fun to see her be on the bottom I think she can kind of do everything but it's hard not to pick J

1:06:55 But I think I have to go with Wentworth yeah it to me same thing it's a tossup between Jeremy and Wentworth I think I don't know like again I'm not clamoring to see either of them back I think they both have had like pretty good three season arcs where you know obviously Wentworth didn't win but she had a really great showing and second chance kind of a you know not disappointing but like you know mid merge kind of showing in her third season Jeremy kind of followed the same way did great at second season kind of went mid merge his last but I think they you know have kind of shown all that they're capable of in different aspects of the game so I'll just say Jeremy just because you said Wentworth so we'll cover our Paces there but I think I think both would be great choices for a season 50 honest and obviously this can't happen I would have said Keith I feel like Keith would have been like if they because 50 can't just have straight game players like they're going to need characters and I would obviously would have said Keith because Keith is probably the ultimate character but because he's pass I would yeah I mean between Jeremy and Wentworth who I would want to see more probably the non winner in that situation only because I don't want any winners on 50 and I really don't want anyone pre 33 on 50 but if you know

1:08:16 Because it's the question I've been asking for 29 days now I would say went Wentworth again I would say if I wanted to pick a one person that hadn't played again probably Josh just because of the thing that we've been talking about all episode of oh yeah J it was Josh and Jeremy they were the game players and the fact that Josh hadn't come back it's like okay yeah if they brought back Josh I'd be cool with it because I would understand why they did it or if they wanted to bring back Jacqueline because one of what one of one of y'all said I think it was Zucker of you know the fact that she has grown as a person and we wouldn't have John and his mess and then Julie I'm just kidding I really appreciate y'all taking the time to do this it's I told one of y'all before we went live I'm really excited to not watch Survivor today because you know s doer is already done so this will be the first I guess I did watch a little bit of surviv but I won't have to watch it all day like I've done the last however many days so that's nice but we've got worlds partk coming tomorrow like I mentioned yesterday because I won't have mamaon this time I don't have to dance around the fact that I hate the season so that should be fun

1:09:36 I don't think there's any other announcements oh yeah rating I'm gonna give sanan diler a four out of five which means that it'll be falling in between it's going to fall in between Panama and Cook Islands on my list so it'll fall it'll be number 14 right now out of third or out of 20 what 29 out of 29 Seasons yeah wow can't believe yeah I just saw the number I'm just like wow I'm not that close to being done but I am I am that close to being I am that close to being done Zucker and Andy thank you so much two of my favorite people that I've ever met in the entire or Community I've actually gotten a chance to meet Zucker in person I'm hoping to meet Andy in person sometime soon everyone thank you that actually showed up in the chat today I understand this is really early but everyone that listens to this later thank you and we will see you all on the other side